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Senna in the NSX

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  • #46
    OK you guys, no one has thought up this possible reason for him driving the way he did.

    He was fast. The fastest. He was on video. He has techniques no one else know nor can they perfect them. In order to protect his secrets he had to change up his driving to mask the way he really drives fast.

    There you go. The end of the discussion. We will never know. ;-)


    Oli
    To the right of The Sheriff. Isn't everyone?

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    • #47
      Naw, lots of people thought of that. One of my half formed thoughts is its just a tick of his, had no real consequence to the vehicle but helped him be "in the zone" or paying attention to the right thing at the right moment. Lots of ideas, heaps of them...

      Another thought is that there is a lot of physical lag in the human body sending messages. For example you can oscillate your hand between two points at a higher frequency than you can send messages in sequence and wait for acknowledgement. You can issue instructions while another one is in the pipeline. So if your pattern of motion fits the target timeline to do something you can respond faster in an oscillation mode than you could issuing an instruction from a stand still waiting for an external signal.

      Basically you have one muscle saying go forward and another saying "stop" or "return" so the go signal is already in the pipeline and if you fail to send the stop or do not go signal you can skip a portion of the signal lag. But the trick to doing that is that your pattern of motion has to fit what the need timeline will be otherwise you can be in a "return" mode when you wanted to send a "go signal" it gets you faster responses sometimes but it can be a gamble that actually results in a slower response at times.

      All the intangible things like that the act of simply doing this all the time could train him and improve his response times.

      However from what I have seen of his data his response times were unremarkable although significantly more consistant than others. That is quite good but not like the stuff legends are made of or anything and factor of 10 from what a current stability control system responds at. These are the kind of things why computer simulations give you starting points, not final setups.
      Last edited by gixxer_drew; 01-05-2012, 08:20 PM.
      Andrew M Brilliant
      Aerodynamicist / Race Engineer

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      • #48
        Also the current now retiring generation of drivers in Japan all idolized Senna, they were in Karts when he was big time. They all exhibit this "fancy footwork" thing, some kind of funny combination of Senna and Katayama. The next generation didn't do the same things and I dont live in the "good old days" fantasy land of driving, its just different now and F1 doesnt have gearboxes anything like they did back then so now they lock up rear diffs and hit the downshift button 15 times instead or whatever. I was talking with Matt about this just a couple weeks ago. Car's are very different now you need to spend focus energy on different things.
        Last edited by gixxer_drew; 01-05-2012, 08:26 PM.
        Andrew M Brilliant
        Aerodynamicist / Race Engineer

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        • #49
          Another thing I notice is that he appears to do very little trail-braking. Looks to me like he brakes in a straight line, turns in & starts tapping the throttle almost simultaneously, then squeezes to full throttle after the apex.
          HP Autowerks 335i - 1st Place @ RTA Las Vegas 2010
          HP Autowerks 335i @ Buttonwillow - 1:59.1
          HP Autowerks 335i @ Laguna Seca
          Buttonwillow dorifto
          Lexus IS-F @ Chuckwalla
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          125cc TonyKart Shifter @ Apex

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          • #50
            Originally posted by J. Tyler View Post
            Another thing I notice is that he appears to do very little trail-braking. Looks to me like he brakes in a straight line, turns in & starts tapping the throttle almost simultaneously, then squeezes to full throttle after the apex.
            That's funny because I interpreted the first video to demonstrate how trail braking can be important (e.g. 1:05 and 1:37). You're right though, it seems like on the faster less sharp turns, he's coming off the brake as he turns in and when he does trail brake, he's not going very deep into the turn.

            Perhaps we are all reading too much into the video given he was probably just messing around! Like to see more videos of him driving where it's against the clock.
            '05 Lotus Elise
            '16 Porsche Cayman GT4

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            • #51
              Originally posted by gixxer_drew View Post
              Another thought is that there is a lot of physical lag in the human body sending messages. For example you can oscillate your hand between two points at a higher frequency than you can send messages in sequence and wait for acknowledgement.
              That's an interesting thought. I've found that when driving in the wet with no ABS I can get better (ie. far more confident) braking by pulsing the pedal pressure really fast. Because with consistent brake pressure it takes ages to detect and fix a wheel lockup, whereas if I waggle the pedal the lockup will be fixed a fraction of a second after it occurs. So I have time to back off the pressure a bit and the car doesn't skid as far when doing so.

              I wonder if that principle applies with throttle in turns: the consequences of overdoing the power are less, because you'll automatically fix it up 1/4 second later. hmm..

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              • #52
                that sounds like how you would drive a high downforce car to me
                Andrew M Brilliant
                Aerodynamicist / Race Engineer

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                • #53
                  i wonder if he would have driven differently if he realized 20 years later people would be hyper analyzing his technique. I know he is a way different driver than me, but I know when I get into a new car in a non competitive environment, there is a decent amount of "goofing around" that happens in the car just feeling things out and having fun...

                  I'm not attempting to invalidate the arguements here in, just puts a different perspective on things. Youtube didn't exist back then. Everyone in the 80s and 90s would be shocked to know how many views their videos have gotten...
                  Last edited by Matt Andrews; 01-06-2012, 08:58 AM.
                  Turn your iphone into an action camera:
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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by vantagesc View Post
                    perhaps we are all reading too much into the video given he was probably just messing around!
                    bingo!!!
                    The deposed former Sheriff of trackHQ . . .

                    2006 Porsche 997 Carerra Coupe 6-MT - daily driver
                    1992 Honda (Acura) NSX 5-MT - classic investment I couldn't resist and occasionally drive
                    2004 Honda S2000 AP2 6-MT - my last track day car (FOR SALE or not, depending on how I feel when I fall out of bed tomorrow morning)
                    2006 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution IX MR 6-MT - when I need a backseat, 4-doors, or a real trunk, and still want to haul ass . . .

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Richard EVO View Post
                      bingo!!!
                      As we mentioned before its documented he used the technique in race, in F1

                      Matt, Those things make advantages (however small) at least in the land I live in. Its the pursuit of the knowledge that value adds even if the technique itself does not. I see this thread as a waste of time, but not analyzing his technique.
                      Andrew M Brilliant
                      Aerodynamicist / Race Engineer

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                      • #56
                        This just has to be him feeling out the car. Theres no way that a few throttle taps on corner entry can create a similar effect to the hysterisis occuring hundreds of times a second in a v-twin engine.

                        But what do i know!

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                        • #57
                          You're all idiots. He was clearly 'drumming' along to the music in his head.
                          2001 MR2-Eleven
                          Experience Points: 21
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                          • #58
                            I think he had a foot fetish and was making love to the throttle pedal.
                            Last edited by Richard EVO; 01-06-2012, 07:55 PM.
                            The deposed former Sheriff of trackHQ . . .

                            2006 Porsche 997 Carerra Coupe 6-MT - daily driver
                            1992 Honda (Acura) NSX 5-MT - classic investment I couldn't resist and occasionally drive
                            2004 Honda S2000 AP2 6-MT - my last track day car (FOR SALE or not, depending on how I feel when I fall out of bed tomorrow morning)
                            2006 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution IX MR 6-MT - when I need a backseat, 4-doors, or a real trunk, and still want to haul ass . . .

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by gixxer_drew View Post
                              As we mentioned before its documented he used the technique in race, in F1.
                              Drew, can you point me to those documents? I'm genuinely curious
                              HP Autowerks 335i - 1st Place @ RTA Las Vegas 2010
                              HP Autowerks 335i @ Buttonwillow - 1:59.1
                              HP Autowerks 335i @ Laguna Seca
                              Buttonwillow dorifto
                              Lexus IS-F @ Chuckwalla
                              100cc TonyKart @ Adams
                              125cc TonyKart Shifter @ Apex

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                              • #60
                                I recall one DAQ book and a couple documentaries, one was in english the other in Japanese
                                Andrew M Brilliant
                                Aerodynamicist / Race Engineer

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