Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Forum Top Advertisment

Collapse

Senna in the NSX

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Originally posted by robburgoon View Post
    Sounds an awful lot like "guess and check" to me, you guys sure he's not just checking how much grip there is in a place where he won't lose much time while he checks it?
    That's exactly what he's doing. Feeling out the car, diff, tires, balance. It's pretty obvious from the video(s) that he did not get many laps in the cars, from the mis-shift to the awkward oversteer bobble in the Red car.

    Has nothing to do with taking advantage of a hysteresis pulse. The pulse frequency is nowhere near high enough; and even if he could do that, 270hp in a 2900lb car is not nearly enough power to take advantage of it. This is not some magical technique that only a superhuman driving god can do....lol. It's a professional formula car driver hopping in a slow, sloppy, vague street car for a couple of laps and feeling it out.
    HP Autowerks 335i - 1st Place @ RTA Las Vegas 2010
    HP Autowerks 335i @ Buttonwillow - 1:59.1
    HP Autowerks 335i @ Laguna Seca
    Buttonwillow dorifto
    Lexus IS-F @ Chuckwalla
    100cc TonyKart @ Adams
    125cc TonyKart Shifter @ Apex

    Comment


    • #32
      This is one of the more ludicrous bench racing discussions I've seen, all of you trying to guess why the late great Senna did some loafer work in an NSX all those years ago, and each one of you being sure the other one is an idiot.
      The deposed former Sheriff of trackHQ . . .

      2006 Porsche 997 Carerra Coupe 6-MT - daily driver
      1992 Honda (Acura) NSX 5-MT - classic investment I couldn't resist and occasionally drive
      2004 Honda S2000 AP2 6-MT - my last track day car (FOR SALE or not, depending on how I feel when I fall out of bed tomorrow morning)
      2006 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution IX MR 6-MT - when I need a backseat, 4-doors, or a real trunk, and still want to haul ass . . .

      Comment


      • #33
        Well, that's something we can agree on, that we're all idiots.
        ~ Jim Tway
        Tway Motorsports
        (714) 528-2150
        #57 Pacific Automotive Recycling Center Corvette

        Brought to you by:
        Pacific Automotive Recycling Center
        PA Construction
        American Heritage Performance

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by jimt View Post
          Well, that's something we can agree on, that we're all idiots.
          Yeah. Jay Lamm, the guy that owns 24 Hours of LeMons has on his email letterhead, describing himself: "that idiot who puts on those crapcan races."
          The deposed former Sheriff of trackHQ . . .

          2006 Porsche 997 Carerra Coupe 6-MT - daily driver
          1992 Honda (Acura) NSX 5-MT - classic investment I couldn't resist and occasionally drive
          2004 Honda S2000 AP2 6-MT - my last track day car (FOR SALE or not, depending on how I feel when I fall out of bed tomorrow morning)
          2006 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution IX MR 6-MT - when I need a backseat, 4-doors, or a real trunk, and still want to haul ass . . .

          Comment


          • #35
            we should call Senna and ask him.
            S1 Supermiata - 220whp
            13 Tesla, ma: no engine !!
            17 GT350R
            03 Miata Club Sport
            96 NSX
            06 EVO MR
            15 Mini Cooper S
            Beck 550 Spyder

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by J. Tyler View Post
              That's exactly what he's doing. Feeling out the car, diff, tires, balance. It's pretty obvious from the video(s) that he did not get many laps in the cars, from the mis-shift to the awkward oversteer bobble in the Red car.

              Has nothing to do with taking advantage of a hysteresis pulse. The pulse frequency is nowhere near high enough; and even if he could do that, 270hp in a 2900lb car is not nearly enough power to take advantage of it. This is not some magical technique that only a superhuman driving god can do....lol. It's a professional formula car driver hopping in a slow, sloppy, vague street car for a couple of laps and feeling it out.
              I'm glad you got it all figured out Jeff.

              I actually still have three running theories in total that all fit the facts. I've resigned that we will never know exactly seeing as how the guy is now dead and all. But theorizing these things and talking with different drivers who always have different opinion helps me learn more about driving.
              Last edited by gixxer_drew; 01-05-2012, 03:52 PM.
              Andrew M Brilliant
              Aerodynamicist / Race Engineer

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Richard EVO View Post
                This is one of the more ludicrous bench racing discussions I've seen, all of you trying to guess why the late great Senna did some loafer work in an NSX all those years ago, and each one of you being sure the other one is an idiot.
                No one is saying that, and I don't think any of us are "sure"

                As a driver who has progressed through karts, formula cars, and all kinds of street cars and who has watched 'kart/formula-car-only' guys drive street cars over the years, it seems pretty obvious to me what he was doing and what he was going through. I certainly could be wrong. That's all.
                HP Autowerks 335i - 1st Place @ RTA Las Vegas 2010
                HP Autowerks 335i @ Buttonwillow - 1:59.1
                HP Autowerks 335i @ Laguna Seca
                Buttonwillow dorifto
                Lexus IS-F @ Chuckwalla
                100cc TonyKart @ Adams
                125cc TonyKart Shifter @ Apex

                Comment


                • #38
                  Or he is having a seizure? Turrets maybe?
                  Milkshake!!!!!!!!!!!!

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Richard EVO View Post
                    This is one of the more ludicrous bench racing discussions I've seen, all of you trying to guess why the late great Senna did some loafer work in an NSX all those years ago, and each one of you being sure the other one is an idiot.
                    I'm pretty sure at almost every point i mentioned things as theories and guesses and specifically said that there is no way we will ever know. Like I said above its just an exercise in asking questions for me that helps me understand driving. Any time I can bring up a discussion about the intricacies of drive technique I learn something, even if its just an understanding of how that driver communicates.
                    Last edited by gixxer_drew; 01-05-2012, 05:07 PM.
                    Andrew M Brilliant
                    Aerodynamicist / Race Engineer

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by gixxer_drew View Post
                      I'm pretty sure at almost every point i mentioned things as theories and guesses and specifically said that there is no way we will ever know. Like I said above its just an exercise in asking questions for me that helps me understand driving. Any time I can bring up a discussion about the intricacies of drive technique I learn something, even if its just an understanding of how that driver communicates.
                      That post wasn't directed to you. I was reacting to the earlier discussion between Jeff and Emilio.
                      The deposed former Sheriff of trackHQ . . .

                      2006 Porsche 997 Carerra Coupe 6-MT - daily driver
                      1992 Honda (Acura) NSX 5-MT - classic investment I couldn't resist and occasionally drive
                      2004 Honda S2000 AP2 6-MT - my last track day car (FOR SALE or not, depending on how I feel when I fall out of bed tomorrow morning)
                      2006 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution IX MR 6-MT - when I need a backseat, 4-doors, or a real trunk, and still want to haul ass . . .

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Funny, I was just reading about this technique yesterday in a Senna mag I picked up. Apparently he is also the only driver of the era who could outrun the calculated theoretical times of the engineers. Im assuming they used a fairly simple algorithm to calculate best times, most likely using peak G calculated at points on the track combined with an "ideal line".

                        I believe we need some guess and check in racing, even with engineering, although frowned upon this may happen. Hell, what do you think wind tunnels are for. You can use fluid dynamics all you want, but you need to confirm this with actual testing. Im still thinking about this in my head, but Ill throw something in the fire: maybe he is playing with his contact patches individually on the rear tires. As in the parallel plane of reference, I believe you guys are only thinking laterally and longitudinally, but there is a varying gradient of grip provided across each contact patch. Maybe in the full two dimension of the contact patch he can optimize that grip somewhere in between just the two directions. Kind of like an individual g-circle for each tire.

                        My other idea is that because of the deformation of the tread he can spike the grip by shocking the rear tread laterally, causing it to quickly deform and spike up in grip. But honestly I have no idea

                        I am very curious about this, I think racing technique has hit some walls in these kinds of departments and needs to be researched further. Please keep this discussion going
                        Last edited by heelntoe; 01-05-2012, 05:58 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Anyone have any contacts at Honda? Maybe someone (1990s Honda NSX Engineer who was there when it happened) knows something we don't know. No harm emailing someone. Worst case, no reply.

                          Maybe Senna did it because he felt it was the fastest way through a corner. Why else would he have done that? Im sure he didn't do it because it was the slowest way through the corner.

                          A) Feeling the grip/balance of the tire.
                          B) Feeling the grip/balance of the car.
                          C) Feeling the grip/balance of the corner.
                          D) Already know the grip/balance of tire/car/corner and felt this was the fastest way to maintain his speed through it on the limit.

                          Lets not forget his rallying experience.




                          Explains why Senna is so fast.
                          Last edited by Pure EvoIX; 01-05-2012, 06:15 PM.
                          Zhong (Evo IX) | Angry Panda Racing

                          1:53.396 @ BRP CW13 - 11/14/13
                          1:47.2xx @ Laguna Seca - 11/28/10
                          2:03.026 @ Thill CCW Bypass - 12/20/14
                          2:05.100 @ CVR CCW - 1/16/11
                          1:58.151 @ CVR CW - 5/5/13
                          1:25.56x @ WSIR - 10/13/13
                          1:23.128 @ SOW CW - 7/27/14
                          1:22.2xx @ SOW CCW - 7/26/14
                          1:46.0xx @ ACS Roval - 11/23/14
                          1:11.299 @ ACS Infield - 5/18/14

                          Fastest Limited/Mod Class Evo in Time Attack at WSIR
                          2nd Fastest Limited/Mod Class Evo in Time Attack at BRP 13CW

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Pure EvoIX View Post
                            Anyone have any contacts at Honda? Maybe someone (1990s Honda NSX Engineer who was there when it happened) knows something we don't know. No harm emailing someone. Worst case, no reply.
                            My dad has worked with F1 people/drivers from that era, I'm going to email him and see if he has any thoughts on it.
                            HP Autowerks 335i - 1st Place @ RTA Las Vegas 2010
                            HP Autowerks 335i @ Buttonwillow - 1:59.1
                            HP Autowerks 335i @ Laguna Seca
                            Buttonwillow dorifto
                            Lexus IS-F @ Chuckwalla
                            100cc TonyKart @ Adams
                            125cc TonyKart Shifter @ Apex

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              I have talked with a friend there who understudied a guy from that era and had a conversation about it, from what he said, they also don't know. I have three theories from those discussions and a lot of thoughts dealing with various aspects. First being how did it not hurt anything (and how they compensated), second being how did it benefit and third why did it only work for Senna. I wouldn't dare say any half formed thoughts around here though
                              Last edited by gixxer_drew; 01-05-2012, 06:48 PM.
                              Andrew M Brilliant
                              Aerodynamicist / Race Engineer

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by gixxer_drew View Post
                                wouldn't dare say any half formed thoughts around here though
                                It doesn't stop anyone else . . .
                                The deposed former Sheriff of trackHQ . . .

                                2006 Porsche 997 Carerra Coupe 6-MT - daily driver
                                1992 Honda (Acura) NSX 5-MT - classic investment I couldn't resist and occasionally drive
                                2004 Honda S2000 AP2 6-MT - my last track day car (FOR SALE or not, depending on how I feel when I fall out of bed tomorrow morning)
                                2006 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution IX MR 6-MT - when I need a backseat, 4-doors, or a real trunk, and still want to haul ass . . .

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X