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Senna in the NSX

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  • Richard EVO
    replied
    Originally posted by gixxer_drew View Post
    wouldn't dare say any half formed thoughts around here though
    It doesn't stop anyone else . . .

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  • gixxer_drew
    replied
    I have talked with a friend there who understudied a guy from that era and had a conversation about it, from what he said, they also don't know. I have three theories from those discussions and a lot of thoughts dealing with various aspects. First being how did it not hurt anything (and how they compensated), second being how did it benefit and third why did it only work for Senna. I wouldn't dare say any half formed thoughts around here though
    Last edited by gixxer_drew; 01-05-2012, 05:48 PM.

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  • J. Tyler
    replied
    Originally posted by Pure EvoIX View Post
    Anyone have any contacts at Honda? Maybe someone (1990s Honda NSX Engineer who was there when it happened) knows something we don't know. No harm emailing someone. Worst case, no reply.
    My dad has worked with F1 people/drivers from that era, I'm going to email him and see if he has any thoughts on it.

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  • Pure EvoIX
    replied
    Anyone have any contacts at Honda? Maybe someone (1990s Honda NSX Engineer who was there when it happened) knows something we don't know. No harm emailing someone. Worst case, no reply.

    Maybe Senna did it because he felt it was the fastest way through a corner. Why else would he have done that? Im sure he didn't do it because it was the slowest way through the corner.

    A) Feeling the grip/balance of the tire.
    B) Feeling the grip/balance of the car.
    C) Feeling the grip/balance of the corner.
    D) Already know the grip/balance of tire/car/corner and felt this was the fastest way to maintain his speed through it on the limit.

    Lets not forget his rallying experience.




    Explains why Senna is so fast.
    Last edited by Pure EvoIX; 01-05-2012, 05:15 PM.

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  • heelntoe
    replied
    Funny, I was just reading about this technique yesterday in a Senna mag I picked up. Apparently he is also the only driver of the era who could outrun the calculated theoretical times of the engineers. Im assuming they used a fairly simple algorithm to calculate best times, most likely using peak G calculated at points on the track combined with an "ideal line".

    I believe we need some guess and check in racing, even with engineering, although frowned upon this may happen. Hell, what do you think wind tunnels are for. You can use fluid dynamics all you want, but you need to confirm this with actual testing. Im still thinking about this in my head, but Ill throw something in the fire: maybe he is playing with his contact patches individually on the rear tires. As in the parallel plane of reference, I believe you guys are only thinking laterally and longitudinally, but there is a varying gradient of grip provided across each contact patch. Maybe in the full two dimension of the contact patch he can optimize that grip somewhere in between just the two directions. Kind of like an individual g-circle for each tire.

    My other idea is that because of the deformation of the tread he can spike the grip by shocking the rear tread laterally, causing it to quickly deform and spike up in grip. But honestly I have no idea

    I am very curious about this, I think racing technique has hit some walls in these kinds of departments and needs to be researched further. Please keep this discussion going
    Last edited by heelntoe; 01-05-2012, 04:58 PM.

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  • Richard EVO
    replied
    Originally posted by gixxer_drew View Post
    I'm pretty sure at almost every point i mentioned things as theories and guesses and specifically said that there is no way we will ever know. Like I said above its just an exercise in asking questions for me that helps me understand driving. Any time I can bring up a discussion about the intricacies of drive technique I learn something, even if its just an understanding of how that driver communicates.
    That post wasn't directed to you. I was reacting to the earlier discussion between Jeff and Emilio.

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  • gixxer_drew
    replied
    Originally posted by Richard EVO View Post
    This is one of the more ludicrous bench racing discussions I've seen, all of you trying to guess why the late great Senna did some loafer work in an NSX all those years ago, and each one of you being sure the other one is an idiot.
    I'm pretty sure at almost every point i mentioned things as theories and guesses and specifically said that there is no way we will ever know. Like I said above its just an exercise in asking questions for me that helps me understand driving. Any time I can bring up a discussion about the intricacies of drive technique I learn something, even if its just an understanding of how that driver communicates.
    Last edited by gixxer_drew; 01-05-2012, 04:07 PM.

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  • 0.o slow 1.6
    replied
    Or he is having a seizure? Turrets maybe?

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  • J. Tyler
    replied
    Originally posted by Richard EVO View Post
    This is one of the more ludicrous bench racing discussions I've seen, all of you trying to guess why the late great Senna did some loafer work in an NSX all those years ago, and each one of you being sure the other one is an idiot.
    No one is saying that, and I don't think any of us are "sure"

    As a driver who has progressed through karts, formula cars, and all kinds of street cars and who has watched 'kart/formula-car-only' guys drive street cars over the years, it seems pretty obvious to me what he was doing and what he was going through. I certainly could be wrong. That's all.

    Leave a comment:


  • gixxer_drew
    replied
    Originally posted by J. Tyler View Post
    That's exactly what he's doing. Feeling out the car, diff, tires, balance. It's pretty obvious from the video(s) that he did not get many laps in the cars, from the mis-shift to the awkward oversteer bobble in the Red car.

    Has nothing to do with taking advantage of a hysteresis pulse. The pulse frequency is nowhere near high enough; and even if he could do that, 270hp in a 2900lb car is not nearly enough power to take advantage of it. This is not some magical technique that only a superhuman driving god can do....lol. It's a professional formula car driver hopping in a slow, sloppy, vague street car for a couple of laps and feeling it out.
    I'm glad you got it all figured out Jeff.

    I actually still have three running theories in total that all fit the facts. I've resigned that we will never know exactly seeing as how the guy is now dead and all. But theorizing these things and talking with different drivers who always have different opinion helps me learn more about driving.
    Last edited by gixxer_drew; 01-05-2012, 02:52 PM.

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  • bellwilliam
    replied
    we should call Senna and ask him.

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  • Richard EVO
    replied
    Originally posted by jimt View Post
    Well, that's something we can agree on, that we're all idiots.
    Yeah. Jay Lamm, the guy that owns 24 Hours of LeMons has on his email letterhead, describing himself: "that idiot who puts on those crapcan races."

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  • jimt
    replied
    Well, that's something we can agree on, that we're all idiots.

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  • Richard EVO
    replied
    This is one of the more ludicrous bench racing discussions I've seen, all of you trying to guess why the late great Senna did some loafer work in an NSX all those years ago, and each one of you being sure the other one is an idiot.

    Leave a comment:


  • J. Tyler
    replied
    Originally posted by robburgoon View Post
    Sounds an awful lot like "guess and check" to me, you guys sure he's not just checking how much grip there is in a place where he won't lose much time while he checks it?
    That's exactly what he's doing. Feeling out the car, diff, tires, balance. It's pretty obvious from the video(s) that he did not get many laps in the cars, from the mis-shift to the awkward oversteer bobble in the Red car.

    Has nothing to do with taking advantage of a hysteresis pulse. The pulse frequency is nowhere near high enough; and even if he could do that, 270hp in a 2900lb car is not nearly enough power to take advantage of it. This is not some magical technique that only a superhuman driving god can do....lol. It's a professional formula car driver hopping in a slow, sloppy, vague street car for a couple of laps and feeling it out.

    Leave a comment:

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