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How to do an alignment with a string system?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Joe jordan View Post
    I have no clue how I answered the above in a quote sorry about that. I tried to highlight it in bold with edit feature, I can set up a car, but I'm an idiot on the forum
    Your commentary is way more important than format. Thanks for your insights. Is there an issue of trying to chase good setup as the tire degrades? Can you find 10ths without keeping other parts of the setup the same like new tires?

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    • #32
      Originally posted by fatbillybob View Post
      Your commentary is way more important than format. Thanks for your insights. Is there an issue of trying to chase good setup as the tire degrades? Can you find 10ths without keeping other parts of the setup the same like new tires?
      There are big disagreements on this, some say you can only setup on new tires, but the bottom line is I'm a cheap bastard and would usually setup older tires. We got good enough to know how the new tires would help the car and it usually just made it much easier to drive but not that much speed... Also since I was always trying to make the setup work for the end of the race used tires were good enough. The key was not dead old used tires but decent old used tires, (still some life left in to them)

      Also that is track dependent, at Willow Springs new tires are always faster, turn 2 and 9 tear up tires! New tires will beat old tires every time at Willow Springs. The rougher the track or course surface the more new tires come into play.

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      • #33
        Are you guys then suggesting setting up the car is better with tires than on hubstands?

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        • #34
          Originally posted by FoxSTI View Post
          Are you guys then suggesting setting up the car is better with tires than on hubstands?
          Both or either will work. I use hubstands at the shop or garage and strings at the track. It depends on what you want. The hubstands are definitely the best for the initial setup after a new car or major component build, but like anything in racing their is more than one way to skin the cat.

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          • #35
            Joe, do you not use strings to set your toe and angle the the hub stands? Where can I see how that I done ? or how to you do it with out strings ?
            My stands have these "toe bars" But what do I reference their ends to - you know?

            Honestly the strings are a PITA in my small garage.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by FoxSTI View Post
              Another question, when you guys add or subtract camber or toe (most importantly) at what increments do you do this?
              I remember when racing 8th scale nitro RC cars we would work on 1/2 degree increments.
              Ahhhh, memories of my 1/10 and 1/8 nitro on-road R/C days. Most people are surprised (for better or worse) at how much carries over from little car setup tools and tricks to big cars. If only I could fit a complete Hudy setup on my Miata. Hub stands put one halfway there.

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              • #37
                ^ When I first talked to Brion (BBX) I told him, "you know? I had something similar from Hudy when I used to race RC cars when I was younger"

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                • #38
                  Are you guys familiar with the ART Laser String II Four Wheel Alignment kit?
                  $1600.00 MSPR.

                  Any one have experience with it? seems pretty logical and comparable to strings, it is worth the money / I maybe I should ask, why is it so expensive.
                  MK Technologies - ART Laser String II

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                  • #39
                    I was looking at the laser method and I leaner that what you need is a LASER LINE device, not a "pointer" (so the process now makes sense.)
                    I really like what ART has done, but the system is a but our of my budget at the moment.

                    However, I have made a car specific rig for my cars to use strings, but if I place a Bosch GLL (+/- 1/8" @ 33 ft.) on each end and just square them to the wheel hubs (or a know point for that matter). No different than string, however I only need to place the fixture of one end of the car (unlike smart strings) and there is not string to deal with.
                    I did a little layout in CAD to see what the margin of error would be with a car that has a 10' wheel base.

                    Turns out that the front wheel I would be +/- 0.0076 " and Read +/- 0.0455" (this is mount the fixture at the front bumper (just like strings).

                    There will always be human error in these approximations, but I am wondering if starting with that margin of error makes sense.

                    The one thing I like about my setup in that lasers are attached to the car, not the floor, and I do not need a 3rd laser. Any thoughts?

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                    • #40
                      I think most alignment shops reference toe to a 24in wheel, correct? The hubstands come with a toe bar that is 24in. So if you measure toe at the ends of those bars, you will likely be speaking the same language to most when they describe their toe settings.
                      1990 S2 SuperMiata

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                      • #41
                        There is no standard for the reference wheel diameter unfortunately. System manufacturers have different wheel diameter reference standards. That is why many manufacturers specify toe dimensions in degrees instead of inches or mm. John Bean uses something around 16" I believe and Hunter uses 28.6" IIRC.


                        Mark
                        AiM Data and Video systems, Suspension Setup, Race car builds, support, and rentals. At your beck and call.

                        Mark Nichols
                        Iron Canyon Motorsports
                        http://www.ironcanyonmotorsports.com

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                        • #42
                          Guys,

                          I have some questions that if you are able to answer can help me greatly.
                          I am using hubstands to do the initial setup so I going to be referencing the end points of a 24" bar mounted to the hub.

                          1. being the I am measuring with a laser and not a sting, it may be a bit harder to get a really accurate measurement. to what level of accuracy are these adjustment made to in?
                          is +/- 1/8" too coarse?

                          I have experience setting camber with a camber gauge, but I haven't never done toe, let alone with a laser.
                          how do I ensure I take a good measurement?

                          My understanding if that I was to be a perpendicular from my reference points to the laser line or strings.

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                          • #43
                            IMO your error is +/-1/2 the thickness of the laser dot. I actually fine strings less accurate because of how they are used and how we would measure from them in real life while in theory they are more accurate than I am saying. Lasers are just dead nuts. And regardless of what you do right or wrong just do it the same repeatable way so that when you make changes the changes are predictable. It is the same reason you always use the same tire gauge and not your friend's so that you can rely on the relative pressure.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by fatbillybob View Post
                              IMO your error is +/-1/2 the thickness of the laser dot. I actually fine strings less accurate because of how they are used and how we would measure from them in real life while in theory they are more accurate than I am saying. Lasers are just dead nuts. And regardless of what you do right or wrong just do it the same repeatable way so that when you make changes the changes are predictable. It is the same reason you always use the same tire gauge and not your friend's so that you can rely on the relative pressure.
                              Hey man, thanks for the feedback.
                              Can you elaborate on your response because I am a little confused with the terminology. What does "just dead nuts" mean?
                              And also, are strings are accurate, or not?
                              when you say strings you mean the actual thread lines?

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by FoxSTI View Post
                                Hey man, thanks for the feedback.
                                Can you elaborate on your response because I am a little confused with the terminology. What does "just dead nuts" mean?
                                And also, are strings are accurate, or not?
                                when you say strings you mean the actual thread lines?
                                dead nuts just means accurate. Strings are accurate. They just introduce potential error because they rely on difficult to obtain reference points to set a jig to hold the strings. Or strings require you to make a square box around the car from which to measure from and not hit or accidentally move while you work around the car. Strings made sense before you could buy a a simple craftsmen laser level. Time and tech moves on. Using laser level and "L" rules make for simple reproducible results because the reference points are now stupid simple. Doing something simple like measuring from string to front of wheel vs. rear of wheel to compute toe is worky because you can move the string as you try to measure. That's just the reality of the technique. Everyone has their own way. There is nothing wrong if results are repeatable so if you like strings that's perfect. You like laser that's good too. You can do it way faster just using a shop because they do the work. Some times you chose a technique because of the car. For example I can't work without a lift on my Vette racecar a converted streetcar. But a GT1 tube frame racecar everything is accessible on jackstands and a lift just does not make sense for working on that car.

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