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  • Racecar, ABS?

    Having a 'discussion' with a friend. For a race/track only vehicle, ABS yes or no and why?

  • #2
    Yes. Without it, much easier to lock up wheels and flat spot expensive race tires.
    The deposed former Sheriff of trackHQ . . .

    2006 Porsche 997 Carerra Coupe 6-MT - daily driver
    1992 Honda (Acura) NSX 5-MT - classic investment I couldn't resist and occasionally drive
    2004 Honda S2000 AP2 6-MT - my last track day car (FOR SALE or not, depending on how I feel when I fall out of bed tomorrow morning)
    2006 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution IX MR 6-MT - when I need a backseat, 4-doors, or a real trunk, and still want to haul ass . . .

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    • #3
      yes.
      S1 Supermiata - 220whp
      13 Tesla, ma: no engine !!
      17 GT350R
      03 Miata Club Sport
      96 NSX
      06 EVO MR
      15 Mini Cooper S
      Beck 550 Spyder

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      • #4
        my focus hasnt had ABS for years neither did my miata LOL

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        • #5
          Didn't William ask the exact question a few months ago?
          99 Mazda Miata SuperMiata #515 - AKA Sparky SOLD
          '91 Mariner Blue Miata project AKA Napoleon

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          • #6
            William asks so many questions, it's tough to keep track.

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            • #7
              no-ABS sucks for many reasons. The worst of which are

              - inside front lockup if braking while turning. This seriously limits trailbraking performance: the inside front exceeds its friction budget much earlier than the outside front.

              - lockups triggered by bumps in the track. Only really a problem at Buttonsuckywillow, where it's a BIG problem. There I run the shocks quite a lot softer, which helps a bit.

              The upside is reliability (and hence safety) - with no ABS and no booster, my brake system is hilariously simple.

              Apparently the e36 3-channel ABS sucks mud rocks, and the e46 ABS is the bees knees.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by flink View Post
                no-ABS sucks for many reasons. The worst of which are

                - inside front lockup if braking while turning. This seriously limits trailbraking performance: the inside front exceeds its friction budget much earlier than the outside front.

                - lockups triggered by bumps in the track. Only really a problem at Buttonsuckywillow, where it's a BIG problem. There I run the shocks quite a lot softer, which helps a bit.

                The upside is reliability (and hence safety) - with no ABS and no booster, my brake system is hilariously simple.

                Apparently the e36 3-channel ABS sucks mud rocks, and the e46 ABS is the bees knees.
                I don't see how any of these are ABS related... if your braking that hard while turning, you've done something wrong... and you can't stand on non ABS brakes over the stupid BW bump either.

                The only reason not to do ABS is the reliability... ask oli.

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                • #9
                  In the dry, I'm slower with my car's crude ABS. In the wet, I am MUCH faster with ABS. If your rules allow it, put it on a switch.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by ryan View Post
                    I don't see how any of these are ABS related... if your braking that hard while turning, you've done something wrong... and you can't stand on non ABS brakes over the stupid BW bump either.

                    The only reason not to do ABS is the reliability... ask oli.
                    Nothing to do with braking hard, trailbraking is about allocating your grip between braking and cornering. As flink stated, due to cornering forces, your outside tire has more weight over it, therefore it can provide more grip. Lets say you are using 90% of grip for turning, and 10% for braking. Your outside tire will have more grip (say 100% on that scale), while inside less (90%), due to body roll. Therefore just by cornering and braking 10%, you lock up inside and shred it.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by heelntoe View Post
                      Nothing to do with braking hard, trailbraking is about allocating your grip between braking and cornering. As flink stated, due to cornering forces, your outside tire has more weight over it, therefore it can provide more grip. Lets say you are using 90% of grip for turning, and 10% for braking. Your outside tire will have more grip (say 100% on that scale), while inside less (90%), due to body roll. Therefore just by cornering and braking 10%, you lock up inside and shred it.
                      Shred is a strong word. It barely has any weight on it, so I'd like to think its not getting flattened as fast as a buried front tire. I think Billy once told me that if you're not getting at least some smoke from the inside rear, you're not driving hard enough.

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                      • #12
                        At Buttonwillow the year we ran 25CCW (no "A") I flat spotted 2 left fronts over the course of the weekend because going into Star Mazda and the Buttonhook the left front was so unweighted that it would lock while the other three wheels were turning. But it was worth it for the good lap times and finishes (for me).

                        Steve

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by SteveLevin View Post
                          At Buttonwillow the year we ran 25CCW (no "A") I flat spotted 2 left fronts over the course of the weekend because going into Star Mazda and the Buttonhook the left front was so unweighted that it would lock while the other three wheels were turning. But it was worth it for the good lap times and finishes (for me).

                          Steve
                          Interesting that you say that. My ABS went out on a 25CCW race and I was having trouble in both those spots fighting lock-up due to the bumps and the declining radius nature of the turns. I can tell you I was giving up several car lengths on each of those corners to the cars with functioning ABS.

                          Oli
                          To the right of The Sheriff. Isn't everyone?

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                          • #14
                            Thunderhill T5:



                            One lap later:



                            THAT'S MY HOOSIER!!

                            And yeah, the flatspotting from braking-while-turning isn't too bad because of the reduced force on the inside wheel, but it's still there. Particularly with the A6's, which are very soft and flatspot in a flash. The R6's are *much* more forgiving. That's about the only good thing I can find to say about R6's

                            The trailbraking issue isn't too bad I find - I tend to drive the school maximize-the-minimum-speed line anyway. But the lockup-over-bumps problem is just terrible in racing situations. My fix for that is to not give a sh*t about Buttonwillow.

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                            • #15
                              in one of our enduro car, we had ABS on a switch. We did a lot of on and off driving. I definitely was a tiny bit faster without ABS. trail braking is much easier without ABS.
                              that said, I would want ABS in an enduro car. for sprint, it wouldn't bother me either way.
                              S1 Supermiata - 220whp
                              13 Tesla, ma: no engine !!
                              17 GT350R
                              03 Miata Club Sport
                              96 NSX
                              06 EVO MR
                              15 Mini Cooper S
                              Beck 550 Spyder

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