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  • Tom1200
    replied
    @fatbillybob as the type of rider who tends to snap the bike to maximum lean (seems to be a standard on 125GP bike) I can tell you that bikes are actually rather slow to turn, trailing the brakes on a bike has the double whammy of speeding up the steering but also keeping the force in the tire equal as you transition from brake loading and corner loading. The easiest way to visualize it is if braking compresses the forks say 2" once you add a corner load that will compress the forks another 1" you need to raise the forks an equal amount. So easing off the brake to let the forks rise 1" while the cornering force compress the forks 1" at the same time you get a net 0 change in load.

    With all that said I think trailing the brakes in the car is as eqaully important. Stuntman sums it up succinctly but to expand on it using my description above; obviously if you're using 100% of the available traction for braking the instant you add even 1% you're compressing the suspension/tire/adding force that will exceed what's available. Also obvious (or it should be)as you add force you need to reduce it somewhere else (add turning force reduce brake force) etc. In the car you get the added benefit of essentially the rear rotating around the front which allows you to use less steering input. As I mentioned earlier (I think) you manage to get the most out of all four tires at once. Much the same way you bend a bike into the corner you need to bend the tire into a corner. Trail braking takes the shock out of the transition.

    Not meaning to belabor this to much but there are many people who tell new track drivers to do all their braking in a straight line. Given that most cars now have ABS Stabilty Control etc. they're not likely to be risking locking the rear tires on corner entry (I seem to be the only idiot who shoes up in a 45 yr old car). I've always disagreed with this (right or wrong) and teach people to trail the brakes from the get go, they are going to have to learn it eventually and no sense having them unlearn one technique for another. Trail braking isn't the end all be all but I believe it to be a very important tool.

    Note if you're driving a car that pumps the exhaust directly into the rear diffuser (like an old Indy Lights or F3000 car) feel free to ignore all of the above. Ok I've gone on long enough..........
    Last edited by Tom1200; 03-21-2017, 09:54 PM.

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  • Stuntman
    replied
    It depends on the car/setup. Some cars (especially those with poor weight distribution - heavy nose weight) don't trail-brake well and thus are slower from trailbraking. However this is far less common and most of the time it is faster to trail-brake and keep the tire at the limit of the friction circle through the entire corner. The amount and level of trailbraking will again depend on the car and setup.

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  • fatbillybob
    replied
    For those who ride/race motorcycles and who also track/race cars do you feel trailbraking a car is as important as trailbraking a bike? Compared to a bike the car seems like a dull knife and maybe trailbraking is not as important?

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  • redtopz
    replied
    Originally posted by fatbillybob View Post
    What a joke by CCR to call that a training video. There is a long discussions about this incident on Ferrarichat. The black car driver was tried and convicted by video and sanctioned. We all know video lies. The black car was a full data car and showed the steering angle trace with no movement of his wheel until the red car hit him. Yet the black car driver was sanctioned. On top of that this was out of class contact! Politics! It is always about who you know.
    Ah yes, the all too common driving style known as more money than talent. And yeah 100% red car's fault. The track bends left there. What a lucky SOB for surviving that!

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  • fatbillybob
    replied
    Originally posted by ucfbrett View Post
    Uh, no, Jim. It means I can appreciate when someone gets a good run on me, and I'll give you a thumbs up, too. Then I'll be coming for you.

    This is what happens when you can't appreciate someone else's corner exit:
    What a joke by CCR to call that a training video. There is a long discussions about this incident on Ferrarichat. The black car driver was tried and convicted by video and sanctioned. We all know video lies. The black car was a full data car and showed the steering angle trace with no movement of his wheel until the red car hit him. Yet the black car driver was sanctioned. On top of that this was out of class contact! Politics! It is always about who you know.

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  • jimt
    replied
    Originally posted by ucfbrett View Post
    Uh, no, Jim. It means I can appreciate when someone gets a good run on me, and I'll give you a thumbs up, too. Then I'll be coming for you.

    This is what happens when you can't appreciate someone else's corner exit:
    Now all I can think about is this:

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  • ucfbrett
    replied
    Originally posted by jimt View Post
    What I just read and thought? Be aggressive with Brenda early in the race, she's a pushover.
    Uh, no, Jim. It means I can appreciate when someone gets a good run on me, and I'll give you a thumbs up, too. Then I'll be coming for you.

    This is what happens when you can't appreciate someone else's corner exit:

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  • jimt
    replied
    Originally posted by ucfbrett View Post
    Early in the race, I can appreciate someone else getting a run on me and making a clean pass. Late in the race, my level of appreciation decreases, so I might be a little more furtive in a one-move block. I don't think I'd make a two-move block because it's illegal and a bit dickish if you ask me.
    What I just read and thought? Be aggressive with Brenda early in the race, she's a pushover.

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  • Loose Caboose
    replied
    Oli, in view of your stout hearted Viking lineage, never associate the words "short" and "dick" in the same paragraph.

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  • Olitho
    replied
    Originally posted by Jamz14 View Post
    Dickish is a style. And I know drivers that have it.
    I have that short style of driving.

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  • Tom1200
    replied
    Like most motorcycle guys I'm a trail braker. A friend once described my style as slippery smooth; I'm getting the most (or trying) out of all 4 tires at once.

    My fabricator has called me a chameleon; I adapt to what a car needs immediately and with no effort. This does have its down side. In a car with little or no adjustments it's fine but rather tha drive around something change the set up dummy.

    Also like most motorcycle racers I'm also on the agressive side as well extremely comfortable with oversteer. Being blessed with better than average car control can lead you down a blind alley.

    And yes I agree driving styles can be a limitation; I find understeery cars a chore to drive. If you want to be amused watch me drive a shifter kart, unlike cars that where I seem to adapt I spend the first session reminding myself I don't need to trail the brakes. My motorcycle tuner once said that "if Tom doesn't like a bike in the first 100 yards he never will" sadly it's pretty much true when it comes to bikes.

    Tom
    Last edited by Tom1200; 03-16-2017, 08:32 PM.

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  • Jamz14
    replied
    Dickish is a style. And I know drivers that have it.

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  • Olitho
    replied
    I don't think blocking is cool on any level. Driving a defensive line is fine, but once you start making a move to kill the momentum of the other driver, that to me is not sportsmanlike.

    But all of that is not a driving style. That is a race tactic.

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  • ucfbrett
    replied
    I would have to go with the word "sportsmanlike." I drive as fast as I can without going over the edge where I'm not sure I can make a pass. I'm not an aggressive blocker, either.

    Early in the race, I can appreciate someone else getting a run on me and making a clean pass. Late in the race, my level of appreciation decreases, so I might be a little more furtive in a one-move block. I don't think I'd make a two-move block because it's illegal and a bit dickish if you ask me.

    I'd also use the word "predictable" because it's safer for everyone and ultimately more fun because mishaps are fewer. I really enjoy the friendship of the people I race with. I'd like to keep it that way.

    That's probably not very exciting or type A, but it seems to work for me. Maybe as I get faster that'll change.

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  • emilio700
    replied
    Originally posted by Stuntman View Post
    Driving styles are limitations.
    This.


    The driver most able to adapt to the conditions, competition strategy and inputs the car wants will be the most successful.

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