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  1. #41
    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif emilio700's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard EVO View Post
    Dynos are notoriously unreliable and require all sorts of academic adjustments to get to the "right" hp figure. Conditions affect dynos, such as temperature, humidity, etc.

    And what about awd cars. Do you know how many awd dynos there are in California? Very few. I doubt seriously any racetrack in the state has one. Road Race Engineering in Santa Fe Springs has one. Send all the GT-R, 911 Turbo, Evo, WRX/STI, Audi, etc. etc. there?
    As Flink said, if only Dynojet 248C and 288C's are used, the results are pretty consistent. Besides, you can dyno right from impound at the track.

    - Racing with NASA, we have on several occasions, dynoed a car at the track for NASA then towed it home to our neighbors dynojet and found the readings within 2whp.
    - We have also compared the dynojet at 7's only (BRP) to the dynojet at MCE (TRP) on succesice weekends with the exact same car and again, found the numbers to be within 2whp
    - We found another local dynojet and compared it to MCE and 7's only with the exacts same car in about a 14 day period. SAE corrected for weather and you guessed it.. 2whp

    Suffice to say, dyno classing works and is easy to implement. Tearing down engines is expensive. Even if a dyno reads say 5% high, it's still in the ball park. Don't dyno or weigh cars and one racer could have 50% more power and 30% less weight. Prep rules mean nothing at that point.
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  2. #42
    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
    As Flink said, if only Dynojet 248C and 288C's are used, the results are pretty consistent. Besides, you can dyno right from impound at the track.

    - Racing with NASA, we have on several occasions, dynoed a car at the track for NASA then towed it home to our neighbors dynojet and found the readings within 2whp.
    - We have also compared the dynojet at 7's only (BRP) to the dynojet at MCE (TRP) on succesice weekends with the exact same car and again, found the numbers to be within 2whp
    - We found another local dynojet and compared it to MCE and 7's only with the exacts same car in about a 14 day period. SAE corrected for weather and you guessed it.. 2whp

    Suffice to say, dyno classing works and is easy to implement. Tearing down engines is expensive. Even if a dyno reads say 5% high, it's still in the ball park. Don't dyno or weigh cars and one racer could have 50% more power and 30% less weight. Prep rules mean nothing at that point.
    Even if your rules don't allow for dyno enforcement, it can be used by officials as a "should we tear him down" check as well.

  3. #43
    I wanna go fast! thepass's Avatar
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    The problem with dyno enforcement is that for an NA car you can throw them on the dyno after they roll off the track and feel confident that what you get from the dyno is what they are puting down on the track. A lot of the Time Attack boys run turbos - X amount of extra power is only a flick of a hidden switch away, so they roll off the track and onto the dyno and flick a switch and all seems right, but they were actually running 10 psi higher just 30 seconds ago... heck, even I have an extra 20 whp on tap by flicking a switch on my dash (I do my best to refrain from doing this on-track because I enjoy driving home after an event)

    Playing devil's advocate here, because I for one really like the power to weight ratio method, but that's a flaw I see in trying to enforce it. NASA TT has plenty of turbo cars though, so how is such a possibility avoided/dealt with there?

    In fact, even an NA car could achieve this by just having two different tunes - one with drastically retarded timing, available at the push of a button, to cheat the dyno. I wish one didn't have to think about it from a perspective of how will someone try to cheat the system, but, well, people wanna win.

    -Ryan
    Last edited by thepass; 10-12-2012 at 12:21 AM.
    Ryan Passey
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    Track Whore Pure EvoIX's Avatar
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    Im gonna play devil's advocate.

    If we do power to weight ratios, then are we gonna have 4 different allowable tires. Because even if everyone has 10:1 power to weight. You can still pick street tires, r comps, semi slicks, slicks. So let's say 10 classes x 4 tires = 40 classes x 3 podiums. EVERYONE is a winner. -______-

    Remember not everyone has a race car or has a trailer that can have a set of slicks. For example miatas and s2k can't bring spare set of tires if they want to run slicks. Some would DD up to the track most likely on street or r comp tires.
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    ..
    Last edited by markhs2; 10-12-2012 at 11:51 AM.

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    Chris, why not get rid of all the AWD, RWD, FWD classes and finally combine them all? Arent there classes with little to no cars? I say combine the classes and have more competition. As a driver id rather be in a class of 30+ cars and finish in P30 with guys beating me by tenths, than podium by myself or in a 3 car class while beating my competitors by several seconds. Id want the same as a spectator.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard EVO View Post
    Dynos are notoriously unreliable and require all sorts of academic adjustments to get to the "right" hp figure. Conditions affect dynos, such as temperature, humidity, etc.

    And what about awd cars. Do you know how many awd dynos there are in California? Very few. I doubt seriously any racetrack in the state has one. Road Race Engineering in Santa Fe Springs has one. Send all the GT-R, 911 Turbo, Evo, WRX/STI, Audi, etc. etc. there?
    They can hire RRE to bring their dyno to the tracks. And RREs dyno can be used for AWD, RWD, FWD, ZWD, DWD...

    Quote Originally Posted by thepass View Post
    The problem with dyno enforcement is that for an NA car you can throw them on the dyno after they roll off the track and feel confident that what you get from the dyno is what they are puting down on the track. A lot of the Time Attack boys run turbos - X amount of extra power is only a flick of a hidden switch away, so they roll off the track and onto the dyno and flick a switch and all seems right, but they were actually running 10 psi higher just 30 seconds ago... heck, even I have an extra 20 whp on tap by flicking a switch on my dash (I do my best to refrain from doing this on-track because I enjoy driving home after an event)

    Playing devil's advocate here, because I for one really like the power to weight ratio method, but that's a flaw I see in trying to enforce it. NASA TT has plenty of turbo cars though, so how is such a possibility avoided/dealt with there?

    In fact, even an NA car could achieve this by just having two different tunes - one with drastically retarded timing, available at the push of a button, to cheat the dyno. I wish one didn't have to think about it from a perspective of how will someone try to cheat the system, but, well, people wanna win.

    -Ryan
    NASA has been testing with GPS combined with dyno readings to make sure people are legal. I have no idea where they are going with it or how successful it has been, but the limited data ive seen from a Socal race is that it has been a good way to monitor people.
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    Here's NARRA's TT rules with 4 classes with all the information of how they deal with; HP and dyno, weight, tires, safety etc...

    http://narraonline.com/images/docume...2-tt-rules.pdf


    The Power to Weight Ratio classing system is not new and has been proven to work very well drawing in increasing numbers of participants because it's straight forward and fair. The numbers for NARRA events show this including more and more varied cars and drivers form a wide range of motorsports. They are still aimed at higher HP cars but the parameters can be adjusted to bring in what ever range you like.

    The points brought up here about potential problems with dyno numbers and tire/class issues have not been a problem for organizations that are using this system. Emilio has answered the issue of dyno accuracy and so have the groups that use P to W.

    This is not a way of doing things that is new, untested or unrefined. The points that are being brought up have already been worked out and everything is working smoothly.
    You don't need to reinvent the wheel here or pick at things that have been resolved by others that have been using this for years now.
    Take what they have already proven to work very successfully and build on it.

    NARRA W2W and Eduro rules and other info

    Forms & Resources

  8. #48
    LongWinded National Champ Bueller's Avatar
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    ^^^
    Why did you delete your previous post, that was right before mine, and then post it again after i posted?
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    Senior Member Matt Andrews's Avatar
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    The previous time attack rule set did a pretty good job of attracting grassroots people who hadn't quite evolved to w2w racing. Not sure how this idea would work in reality, but maybe you should have a list of rules that you can make an exception on with a penalty. Dont have a dash or enough stickers? add 40lbs of ballast. limit to a certain number of exceptions with added ballast. most race cars have the ability to add ballast, so shouldn't be a big deal for them, and maybe you'd attract more cars?
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    Senior Member zjchaser's Avatar
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    all I know is it worked back in the day. we all had some really fun times with good field sizes in the classes back then. Hoping it returns to that whatever the rulesets end up being.

  11. #51
    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif emilio700's Avatar
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    Matt is a perfect example. Stock engined FR-S. Without turbo, he has no hope in Street or Mod. It's one of his daily drivers and needs to pass CA emissions so aftermarket F/I will be tough.

    Maybe something like Mod and Mod2, Street and Street2. Two more classes.

    Mod >=11.0 lbs/hp
    Mod2 <11.0 lbs/hp

    Street >=11.0 lbs/hp
    Street2 <11.0 lbs/hp
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    Track Whore Pure EvoIX's Avatar
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    Or how about this:

    Slicks
    Unlimited Class - >10.01lbs/hp
    2000lbs/1-200whp - A6
    2500lbs/1-250whp - A6
    3000lbs/1-300whp - A6
    3500lbs/1-350whp - A6
    Super Unlimited Class - 5.01lbs-10.0lbs/hp
    2000lbs/201-399whp - A6
    2500lbs/251-499whp - A6
    3000lbs/301-599whp - A6
    3500lbs/351-699whp - A6
    Extreme Unlimited Class -<5.00lbs/hp
    2000lbs/401+ whp - A6
    2500lbs/501+ whp - A6
    3000lbs/601+ whp - A6
    3500lbs/701+ whp - A6

    R Comps
    Modified Class - >10.01lbs/hp
    2000lbs/1-200whp - NT01
    2500lbs/1-250whp - NT01
    3000lbs/1-300whp - NT01
    3500lbs/1-350whp - NT01
    Super Modified Class -5.01lbs-10.0lbs/hp
    2000lbs/201-399whp - NT01
    2500lbs/251-499whp - NT01
    3000lbs/301-599whp - NT01
    3500lbs/351-699whp - NT01
    Extreme Modified Class - <5.00lbs/hp
    2000lbs/401+ whp - NT01
    2500lbs/501+ whp - NT01
    3000lbs/601+ whp - NT01
    3500lbs/701+ whp - NT01

    Street Tires
    Street Class - >10.01lbs/hp
    2000lbs/1-200whp - RS3
    2500lbs/1-250whp - RS3
    3000lbs/1-300whp - RS3
    3500lbs/1-350whp - RS3
    Super Street Class - 5.01lbs-10.0lbs/hp
    2000lbs/201-399whp - RS3
    2500lbs/251-499whp - RS3
    3000lbs/301-599whp - RS3
    3500lbs/351-699whp - RS3
    Extreme Street Class - <5.00lbs/hp
    2000lbs/401+ whp - RS3
    2500lbs/501+ whp - RS3
    3000lbs/601+ whp - RS3
    3500lbs/701+ whp - RS3

    Street Tires
    Enthusiast Class - >10.01lbs/hp
    2000lbs/1-200whp - RS3
    2500lbs/1-250whp - RS3
    3000lbs/1-300whp - RS3
    3500lbs/1-350whp - RS3
    Super Enthusiast Class - 5.01lbs-10.0lbs/hp
    2000lbs/201-399whp - RS3
    2500lbs/251-499whp - RS3
    3000lbs/301-599whp - RS3
    3500lbs/351-699whp - RS3
    Extreme Enthusiast Class - <5.00lbs/hp
    2000lbs/401+ whp - RS3
    2500lbs/501+ whp - RS3
    3000lbs/601+ whp - RS3
    3500lbs/701+ whp - RS3

    Total of 12 Classes. Scrap all the AWD, RWD, FWD classes. So now if you have a (low, medium, high hp) car and (street/street/r comps/slick tire) there will be a class for you and will be competing similar vehicles. Difference between Enthusiast and Street Class with be the class rules within each of those on what you can/can't do. So 12 Winners, 36 Podiums. It would be the same is the old format of 12 possible winners and 36 podiums. Only difference is that it will be more fair. Everyone can play, s2k/miata with street tires, s2k/miata with slicks, evo/wrx with r comps, evo/wrx with slicks, evo/wrx with street tires. You won't be tossed in a class with miata on slicks vs corvette on slicks or evo on street tires vs miata on street tires, etc...

    Also keep rules on FWD, RWD, AWD tire sizes. That way it can still be fair. FWD has no limit on tire width. RWD 285 is max. AWD 265 is max. For Street, Enthusiast, and Modified Classes. Unlimited is well unlimited.
    Last edited by Pure EvoIX; 10-12-2012 at 05:14 PM.
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    Señor Member b3d3g1's Avatar
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    what are the prizes for the winners for the different levels? This would definitely influence turn out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris@Xtremespeed View Post
    Hey all, We've got the new RLTA site online today: www.RedlineTimeAttack.com Still needs tons of content, but we're working hard to get everything going again. Rules are posted as well. We're running an exhibition event this NOV 18 at Buttonwillow to test these new rules out. If you want to help me update the rules, please come on out. Run these rules first and let me know what you think. I'm sure I'll need to make changes before the 2013 series takes hold.
    Chris,

    Glad to see RLTA back. Always wanted to try one your events. But why not have 2 street tire classes and have 2 which allows R-comps (Hoosier R6/A6,etc). If I read the rules correctly, r-comps put you right into Unlimited class.
    There lots of cars running on R-comps which are not heavily modified.

    Thanks,
    John
    03 Z06
    Last edited by jrlz06; 10-12-2012 at 05:43 PM.

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    Hey Chris -

    I really like that the 2013 Schedule already has 2 announced events at each of my 2 favorite SoCal Tracks - WSIR (big track), and Chuckwalla. Chuckwalla can be run in both directions and both are great fun, but different. May I suggest that you run one 2013 CVR event CW, and the other CCW, for the variety? I like CCW a little better, but not enough to always run the track that way.
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  16. #56
    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif emilio700's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pure EvoIX View Post
    Or how about this:

    Slicks
    Unlimited Class - >10.01lbs/hp
    2000lbs/1-200whp - A6
    2500lbs/1-250whp - A6
    3000lbs/1-300whp - A6
    3500lbs/1-350whp - A6
    Super Unlimited Class - 5.01lbs-10.0lbs/hp
    2000lbs/201-399whp - A6
    2500lbs/251-499whp - A6
    3000lbs/301-599whp - A6
    3500lbs/351-699whp - A6
    Extreme Unlimited Class -<5.00lbs/hp
    2000lbs/401+ whp - A6
    2500lbs/501+ whp - A6
    3000lbs/601+ whp - A6
    3500lbs/701+ whp - A6

    R Comps
    Modified Class - >10.01lbs/hp
    2000lbs/1-200whp - NT01
    2500lbs/1-250whp - NT01
    3000lbs/1-300whp - NT01
    3500lbs/1-350whp - NT01
    Super Modified Class -5.01lbs-10.0lbs/hp
    2000lbs/201-399whp - NT01
    2500lbs/251-499whp - NT01
    3000lbs/301-599whp - NT01
    3500lbs/351-699whp - NT01
    Extreme Modified Class - <5.00lbs/hp
    2000lbs/401+ whp - NT01
    2500lbs/501+ whp - NT01
    3000lbs/601+ whp - NT01
    3500lbs/701+ whp - NT01

    Street Tires
    Street Class - >10.01lbs/hp
    2000lbs/1-200whp - RS3
    2500lbs/1-250whp - RS3
    3000lbs/1-300whp - RS3
    3500lbs/1-350whp - RS3
    Super Street Class - 5.01lbs-10.0lbs/hp
    2000lbs/201-399whp - RS3
    2500lbs/251-499whp - RS3
    3000lbs/301-599whp - RS3
    3500lbs/351-699whp - RS3
    Extreme Street Class - <5.00lbs/hp
    2000lbs/401+ whp - RS3
    2500lbs/501+ whp - RS3
    3000lbs/601+ whp - RS3
    3500lbs/701+ whp - RS3

    Street Tires
    Enthusiast Class - >10.01lbs/hp
    2000lbs/1-200whp - RS3
    2500lbs/1-250whp - RS3
    3000lbs/1-300whp - RS3
    3500lbs/1-350whp - RS3
    Super Enthusiast Class - 5.01lbs-10.0lbs/hp
    2000lbs/201-399whp - RS3
    2500lbs/251-499whp - RS3
    3000lbs/301-599whp - RS3
    3500lbs/351-699whp - RS3
    Extreme Enthusiast Class - <5.00lbs/hp
    2000lbs/401+ whp - RS3
    2500lbs/501+ whp - RS3
    3000lbs/601+ whp - RS3
    3500lbs/701+ whp - RS3

    Total of 12 Classes. Scrap all the AWD, RWD, FWD classes. So now if you have a (low, medium, high hp) car and (street/street/r comps/slick tire) there will be a class for you and will be competing similar vehicles. Difference between Enthusiast and Street Class with be the class rules within each of those on what you can/can't do. So 12 Winners, 36 Podiums. It would be the same is the old format of 12 possible winners and 36 podiums. Only difference is that it will be more fair. Everyone can play, s2k/miata with street tires, s2k/miata with slicks, evo/wrx with r comps, evo/wrx with slicks, evo/wrx with street tires. You won't be tossed in a class with miata on slicks vs corvette on slicks or evo on street tires vs miata on street tires, etc...

    Also keep rules on FWD, RWD, AWD tire sizes. That way it can still be fair. FWD has no limit on tire width. RWD 285 is max. AWD 265 is max. For Street, Enthusiast, and Modified Classes. Unlimited is well unlimited.
    Unlimited doesn't need any power cap IMO. I wouldn't create weight tiers as they are too restrictive. You make whatever power you make and weigh whatever you weigh. If you are low power to weight, you run one class. More power you run the other.If you have a touch too much power for the low power class, you add ballast. Enthusiast class is all stock engines so no power cap. Anybody with a high power car like say a GTR, just gets stuck into Street anyway. So the same 4 classes as current, but adding two lower lbs/hp classes for Street and mod. So 2 more classes.

    The other, and more complex way to run it is to stick with the existing 4 classes but add mods for low power to weight. Run a less powerful car in Mod or Street and get maybe stickier tires. Play with the lbs/hp break point and tire compound choices to balance things out. Just an idea.
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    Track Whore Pure EvoIX's Avatar
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    Yeah, i was stating the weight and whp as examples for typical cars. So a 2000lb/200whp can play with a 3500lb/350whp car and will be fair. Not saying we should make weight tiers. Just 4 Primary Classes of 3 diff power to weight ratios. Or we can do 3 Primary Classes of 4 diff power to weight ratios and scrap Enthusiast class. If not power cap for unlimited, what if i ran a bone stock from the factory evo on A6s, which class would i be in. Yep, you guessed it, unlimited class. Im sure there are unlimited GTRs, unlimited miatas, unlimited s2ks, unlimited evos. Each will make diff hp and weigh differently. I mean if you make gobs of power anyway you should be in the <5.0lbs/hp anyway. Leave the lesser power on slicks to play with lesspower power on slicks aka Miata on Miata action. Or S2k on S2k Action. Or evo on evo action. Leave the 1000whp GTRs to play with 1200whp Vettes. Make sense? I dunno, that is where I was coming from.

    Essentially there are 4 tiers in each main class. Fast cars on slicks. Really Fast cars on slicks. Stupid Fast cars on slick. Stupidly ridiculously fast F1 budget cars on slicks. So a miata on 225 slicks doesnt have to compete against a 1200whp Vette on 315 slicks. lol.
    Last edited by Pure EvoIX; 10-12-2012 at 05:38 PM.
    Zhong (Evo IX) | Angry Panda Racing

    1:53.396 @ BRP CW13 - 11/14/13
    1:47.2xx @ Laguna Seca - 11/28/10
    2:03.026 @ Thill CCW Bypass - 12/20/14
    2:05.100 @ CVR CCW - 1/16/11
    1:58.151 @ CVR CW - 5/5/13
    1:25.56x @ WSIR - 10/13/13
    1:23.128 @ SOW CW - 7/27/14
    1:22.2xx @ SOW CCW - 7/26/14
    1:46.0xx @ ACS Roval - 11/23/14
    1:11.299 @ ACS Infield - 5/18/14

    Fastest Limited/Mod Class Evo in Time Attack at WSIR
    2nd Fastest Limited/Mod Class Evo in Time Attack at BRP 13CW

  18. #58
    LongWinded National Champ Bueller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pure EvoIX View Post
    Yeah, i was stating the weight and whp as examples for typical cars. So a 2000lb/200whp can play with a 3500lb/350whp car and will be fair. Not saying we should make weight tiers. Just 4 Primary Classes of 3 diff power to weight ratios. Or we can do 3 Primary Classes of 4 diff power to weight ratios and scrap Enthusiast class. If not power cap for unlimited, what if i ran a bone stock from the factory evo on A6s, which class would i be in. Yep, you guessed it, unlimited class. Im sure there are unlimited GTRs, unlimited miatas, unlimited s2ks, unlimited evos. Each will make diff hp and weigh differently. I mean if you make gobs of power anyway you should be in the <5.0lbs/hp anyway. Leave the lesser power on slicks to play with lesspower power on slicks aka Miata on Miata action. Or S2k on S2k Action. Or evo on evo action. Leave the 1000whp GTRs to play with 1200whp Vettes. Make sense? I dunno, that is where I was coming from.

    Essentially there are 4 tiers in each main class. Fast cars on slicks. Really Fast cars on slicks. Stupid Fast cars on slick. Stupidly ridiculously fast F1 budget cars on slicks. So a miata on 225 slicks doesnt have to compete against a 1200whp Vette on 315 slicks. lol.
    There is the argument that going straight off of a w/p ratio wont even things out enough. Im only familiar with NASA so id suggest taking a look at their system which factors in weight differences...the lighter you are the more of a penalty you take and vice versa. I know that over the years those weight tables have evolved:

    2012 ST Classification Form
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  19. #59
    Senior Member Matt Andrews's Avatar
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    the rules of the grassroots motorsports ultimate track car thing are kind of interesting...
    Turn your iphone into an action camera:
    www.igloocase.com
    www.facebook.com/igloocase.com

  20. #60
    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif emilio700's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Andrews View Post
    the rules of the grassroots motorsports ultimate track car thing are kind of interesting...
    Cliff notes?
    WWW.949RACING.COM
    SuperMiata

    Aside from their cost I never understood why people race them.
    But obviously I just dont get it. -fatbillybob

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