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    I wanna go fast! thepass's Avatar
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    I'm interested to see how things play out. I'm really happy to see RLTA making a come back. On the other hand, I'm apprehensive because the current rules seem too stuck in the past.

    Any rule set that puts a guy who turns up in a Spec Miata in Unlimited Class alongside a fire breathing unobtanium-budget TA car needs some re-tooling.

    It's got tons of potential, but didn't RLTA die out? Isn't this a come back? I don't mean to bring up a sore subject - and I know there were many other reasons for its demise, but why bring it back and stick 99.9% to the old formula when you could broaden the appeal even more and give it a much larger chance at long-term success?

    Seems to me like creating a broader appeal to possible participants will keep the series thriving a lot longer than catering rules to the few with huge budgets - Unlimited exists - they have their place to play. So why structure MOD in a way that encourages huge $$$ as well? With things as they are now, you need to spend $100k for a fast MOD class car, and just leave the dash in and run NT-01s. It's silly really. Take active aero and a few of the other high-dollar things out of MOD, allow a bit more leneancy with the interior removal, and you'll suddenly have a MOD class teeming with entrants bringing their cars that they also run in other classes and series - and maybe they'll convert over. Right now MOD is for either people who just happen to have a street car that fits into the class (and therefore won't be competetive) or guys/shops who have big big budgets and want to build a car specifically for that class. It turns away a lot of guys who would love to run in RLTA...

    -Ryan
    Last edited by thepass; 10-11-2012 at 12:18 AM.
    Ryan Passey
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryneen View Post
    OMG! Here we go. Welcome to American motorsports where everyone wants the rules to fit there personal situation. It's this kind of mentality that fragments much of the race classes in the US. European motorsport enthusiasts don't seem to let this kind of self centered thinking fragment their classes.
    Ryneen- You have to be blind not to see vast legion of existing cars, with owners that would love to participate but don't because they don't have 500hp TA engines nor the budget to build one. There is a reason TA has not prospered here. TA cars are unique and don't fit into any other racing or time trial series except as unlimited usually. Most drivers with the budget to build a competitive TA car would rather just go wheel to wheel racing, so that's what they do. That's what I did and I started as time trialer.

    Hint: There are several very successful time trial series around the country based on power to weight ratios and mod points with caps.
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    Track Whore Pure EvoIX's Avatar
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    If RLTA does mod points with caps and power to weight ratios with different classes, what would differentiate RLTA from NASA for example besides the brand name, organization, and how it is run?

    Purpose built time attack cars wont fit in any racing series except Time Attack events (SLB/GTA/RLTA/ETA/WTA/etc...). Race cars built for a racing series (NASA/SCCA) won't be competitive in Unlimited class, but at least they can compete. Ok maybe time attack cars might fit in the Unlimited Time Trial Class with some tweaks and adjustments.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryneen View Post
    OMG! Here we go. Welcome to American motorsports where everyone wants the rules to fit there personal situation. It's this kind of mentality that fragments much of the race classes in the US. European motorsport enthusiasts don't seem to let this kind of self centered thinking fragment their classes.
    - Chris, I'm looking forward to running with RTA with whatever rules you see fit even if I need to modify my car to make it work. Thanks for giving us an opportunity to do this.
    Quote Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
    Ryneen- You have to be blind not to see vast legion of existing cars, with owners that would love to participate but don't because they don't have 500hp TA engines nor the budget to build one. There is a reason TA has not prospered here. TA cars are unique and don't fit into any other racing or time trial series except as unlimited usually. Most drivers with the budget to build a competitive TA car would rather just go wheel to wheel racing, so that's what they do. That's what I did and I started as time trialer.

    Hint: There are several very successful time trial series around the country based on power to weight ratios and mod points with caps.
    Emilio, Thanks for noting that, and thats exactly where I am. I have a pretty quick nasa ST-2 car, with enough grip and power to make good runs in Mod class. But my car is built to other rules, Not RTA rules. Meaning my car has a full dash but not glove box. So how silly would it be for me to show up (with tires I don't race on in nasa PS) for an RTA event only to be told, "uhh you don't have a glovebox so you are bumped into unlimited." How is that fair? I mean I can understand for other things like my engine or the size of my tires, but a glove box? That has no effect on my car's performance yet it's in the rules.

    Ryneen,
    While you may think I'm nit picking (and I am) but I'm doing it for a good reason. While I understand there need to separate the classes, I dont think a glovebox should be a way to do it.


    Honestly, I'll probably end up running unlimited because I dont want to buy a set of R888's to run a few events, when I have a stack of v710's that need to be used up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pure EvoIX View Post
    If RLTA does mod points with caps and power to weight ratios with different classes, what would differentiate RLTA from NASA for example besides the brand name, organization, and how it is run?
    very true, and this is why I like time attack, that and it tends to excite more people than HDPE's

    Quote Originally Posted by Pure EvoIX View Post
    Purpose built time attack cars wont fit in any racing series except Time Attack events (SLB/GTA/RLTA/ETA/WTA/etc...). Race cars built for a racing series (NASA/SCCA) won't be competitive in Unlimited class, but at least they can compete. Ok maybe time attack cars might fit in the Unlimited Time Trial Class with some tweaks and adjustments.
    Actually just about every american built TA car would fit nicely in the nasa SU or st-1 class (assuming the cage is up to snuff).

    And don't lump ALL the race cars into the "uncompetitive" class in time attack. But I do agree most of the slower racing classes get hosed. Hell, Chris will tell you I came out in my 944 spec car YEARS ago and ran unlimited.... and got trampled, lol. but I had a blast.

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    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif Chris@Xtremespeed's Avatar
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    Ryan - This rule set is actually going back to when Redline was very successful and we saw a vast amount of cars competing. We are still working on the rules. We may very well end up limiting the classes more. At this time, we're making sure we can enforce what we do have.

    Emilio - I'm not sure where this vast legion of cars are of witch you speak. If your speaking of people with lower power race cars like spec miata, then yes they really don't have a chance and are beat by most of the street class cars. There is not much I can do about that and time attack isn't going to work for them. There are plenty of great time trail series, but none that have been able to bring sponsors, drivers, shops/teams and media to the table as well as Redline. With this high level of media and sponsorship, we can provide opportunity that you just can't find with other time trail organizations.

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    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif Chris@Xtremespeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spazegun2213 View Post
    very true, and this is why I like time attack, that and it tends to excite more people than HDPE's



    Actually just about every american built TA car would fit nicely in the nasa SU or st-1 class (assuming the cage is up to snuff).

    And don't lump ALL the race cars into the "uncompetitive" class in time attack. But I do agree most of the slower racing classes get hosed. Hell, Chris will tell you I came out in my 944 spec car YEARS ago and ran unlimited.... and got trampled, lol. but I had a blast.
    Ross -you did pretty well considering what you had out to the track. Give you're self a little credit. Didn't you podium with a vette a few times?

    You know, your right about the higher power NASA, or SCCA cars running in Unlimited. They did fine. Perhaps I need to find a way to let the lower power cars play. When we've tried in the past it hasn't worked out so well, but I'm open for suggestions.

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    I wanna go fast! thepass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris@Xtremespeed View Post
    We are still working on the rules. We may very well end up limiting the classes more. At this time, we're making sure we can enforce what we do have.
    Hat's off to you for keeping that at the forefront of priorities. Doesn't matter what's written in the rule book if you can't properly enforce it and keep the competition clean.

    -Ryan
    Ryan Passey
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    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif Blackbird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris@Xtremespeed View Post
    Perhaps I need to find a way to let the lower power cars play. When we've tried in the past it hasn't worked out so well, but I'm open for suggestions.
    Okay, since you asked for it here's an idea.
    NASA has a nice system of converting what appears to be a million racing classes from various organizations into their uber-simplified enduro classing system.
    Have a look at 4.2, this is probably a great place to start - http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/enduro.pdf
    A quick comparison of lap records from RLTA and the classes in question should help in making the decision where to place cars.

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    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif Chris@Xtremespeed's Avatar
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    I'll look into it Moti - Thanks. But please don't expect anything real soon. It could take months to work this out if we can get it to work with the other time attack cars.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris@Xtremespeed View Post
    Emilio - I'm not sure where this vast legion of cars are of witch you speak. If your speaking of people with lower power race cars like spec miata, then yes they really don't have a chance and are beat by most of the street class cars. There is not much I can do about that and time attack isn't going to work for them. There are plenty of great time trail series, but none that have been able to bring sponsors, drivers, shops/teams and media to the table as well as Redline. With this high level of media and sponsorship, we can provide opportunity that you just can't find with other time trail organizations.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris@Xtremespeed View Post
    You know, your right about the higher power NASA, or SCCA cars running in Unlimited. They did fine. Perhaps I need to find a way to let the lower power cars play. When we've tried in the past it hasn't worked out so well, but I'm open for suggestions.
    Moti's link is a good place to start. Most TT classes that still have interiors and glass have stock or near stock engines so that's like Enthusiast class. The only classes that have big TA style power to be competitive in Street or Mod are the top 2-3 road race classes, fully gutted and only fit in unlimited. The remaining 60+ "gutted and underpowered" classes can clearly afford to keep their cars running, pay entry fees and travel. Huge customer base, me included and I have four cars.

    Expensive high powered TA cars are more attractive for potential media coverage. History has shown however, that there aren't enough shops/racers that can afford to drag their cars around the country and do the full series unless there is big prize or contingency money. A NASA TT nationals win is worth $2000~$4000, a regional win $500~1500 in sponsor contingencies to the racer. W2W contingencies are even bigger. Run the right stickers on the right car and a racer could get $7500 worth of cash/schwag for a Runoffs win and that's only one of about a dozen classes there.

    Build a class structure that allows either a cheaper build or existing W2W cars to be competitive in Mod, throw in some prize money and you'll have bigger fields. I'll show up for sure.

    On a related note, the pits at a TA event are seemingly littered with broken cars, engines on the ground, etc. A lot of TA cars seem to have very little development or testing, breaking on the out lap and stuff. Go to an SCCA or NASA weekend with 3x as many cars and you probably won't see a single engine on the ground and the cars are run much longer and harder. My point is that bringing more thoroughly developed and tested W2W cars for what amounts to a "qualifying lap" competition for prize money will bring out the wolves. I, for one, would like to see that.
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    ^ Exactly.

    Absolutely keep the baller Unlimited class that RLTA is known for - that's the class that draws the glamour, the big sponsors, the media coverage, etc. But design the lower classes to be approachable by the widest audience - this way you're guaranteed a sellout event every time, instead of just entrants who built cars specifically for RLTA.

    In my opinion, (though I know it's not much), Mod needs to lighten up on the interior requirements - after all you're allowed to "modify" rght? and cut out the stuff that belongs in Unlimited - active aero, changing suspension pickup locations...

    Then, restrict the engine in some way- after all, Mod should be a middle ground between Street which is a near-stock engine with just bolt-ons and Unlimited which is anything goes for engine building. The reason a power-to-weight ratio system works so well is because then you don't have to fuss with the headache of trying to create some set of engine restriction rules that work for such a broad range of cars. Set power to weight ratio caps on Street and Mod, and leave Unlimited unrestricted - that's the easiest way to do it and you don't have to add pages and pages of engine restrictions. A guy can have more power or put more work into lightening, either way the power-to-weight ratio limit is an equalizer.

    This can work fantastically for shop-built cars too: a place that specializes in lightweight body components would probably love to campaign a car that emphasizes weight over raw power in the hopes of proving the value of what they sell, whereas a company that specializes in go-fast engine parts can run a higher HP car to highlight what they do - and both cars should be roughly competetive with eachother because they must both meet a certain power to weight.

    -Ryan
    Last edited by thepass; 10-11-2012 at 03:42 PM.
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    I agree that the power to weight ratio option is a great idea to look into.

    NARRA (North American Road Race Association) has found this method of establishing classes to be very successful.

    It has worked well for them in both Time Trial class and Wheel to Wheel. They have been using this approach to classification/rules for the past 3 yrs and have found:

    It's very simple, straightforward and fair.
    Both NARRA and the competitors like how simple and easy this is to apply as opposed to using a rules book that's a mile long for each class.
    They have found it to be very successful in terms of the ever increasing number of participants, interest and sponsors. There's is aimed at higher HP cars but it's easily massaged to fit your needs and targets.

    Check it out:

    Wheel to Wheel

    http://narraonline.com/images/docume...2-gt-rules.pdf

    Time Trial

    http://narraonline.com/images/docume...2-tt-rules.pdf

    GT Enduro, This is a class they added because this system is gaining participants and interest.

    http://narraonline.com/images/docume...rules-2012.pdf

    NARRA site

    Forms & Resources

    What do you think Chris?
    Last edited by markhs2; 10-12-2012 at 10:34 AM.

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    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif Chris@Xtremespeed's Avatar
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    Lots of good stuff, but I'll have to look into all of this. The general philosophy of what I think time attack is about isn't policing power to weight ratios. I think the best way to go forward at this point is to have as many people come out and try what we have. Let the lap times give us some data to work on. I'll work with many teams and drivers that come out and test the rules that I have in place for now. I can only take this one step at a time. You guys have some great ideas, but implementing them my not be as piratical as you would think. I'm not shutting anything down at this point. I'm going to take everything in and see what I can use, and what I can't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris@Xtremespeed View Post
    The general philosophy of what I think time attack is about isn't policing power to weight ratios.
    Far easier than tearing down engines and sampling fuel. You weigh it as it comes off track. Racer supplies a certified dyno printout. That's it. If you think they're cheating, you dyno them on the spot.
    Every track has a dyno either there or nearby. You can also rent portable dyno's pretty cheap. That's what they did at NASA nationals.
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    But obviously I just dont get it. -fatbillybob

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    Chris, I can only speak for myself but I'm sure many will agree with me.
    The core of the thread isn't just to point out items that one doesn't like in the RLTA rulebook but to help you improve RLTA in it's new version by making suggestions and comment on things that may have not work well in the past.
    I hope that this is all taken in a positive manner because I wish you nothing but success and would love to see RLTA taking off and becoming the TA series of choice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
    Far easier than tearing down engines and sampling fuel. You weigh it as it comes off track. Racer supplies a certified dyno printout. That's it. If you think they're cheating, you dyno them on the spot.
    Every track has a dyno either there or nearby. You can also rent portable dyno's pretty cheap. That's what they did at NASA nationals.
    Dynos are notoriously unreliable and require all sorts of academic adjustments to get to the "right" hp figure. Conditions affect dynos, such as temperature, humidity, etc.

    And what about awd cars. Do you know how many awd dynos there are in California? Very few. I doubt seriously any racetrack in the state has one. Road Race Engineering in Santa Fe Springs has one. Send all the GT-R, 911 Turbo, Evo, WRX/STI, Audi, etc. etc. there?
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    Chris did say that he is open to the rules, but he is keeping them open to attract the largest group of people, which makes perfect sense to me. He also said he needs lap times as data to modify the rules. If you dont show up cause you think someone make believe car with a gazillion hp is going to destroy you, nothing will ever change in Redline. If you show up to the event and support the series, you have a much better shot at influencing change vs bench racing. We need committed people there to promote the evolution of Time Attack. The current rule set is a baseline to get things off the ground. At the end the day this is Time Attack, and not spec racing. Chris is trying to keep some of the basic elements of what made time attack what it is. You should all be excited that we got the US's best platform for TA back, with guys that are willing to put there money on the line to support US Time Attack and bring it back to what it was.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard EVO View Post
    Dynos are notoriously unreliable and require all sorts of academic adjustments to get to the "right" hp figure. Conditions affect dynos, such as temperature, humidity, etc.
    Well, they do compensate for barometric pressure, temperature and humidity.

    And what about awd cars. Do you know how many awd dynos there are in California? Very few. I doubt seriously any racetrack in the state has one.
    MCE Racing at thunderhill recently installed an AWD dyno.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flink View Post
    Well, they do compensate for barometric pressure, temperature and humidity.

    MCE Racing at thunderhill recently installed an AWD dyno.
    Thanks for the info. I still think that believing dynos to compare one car to another requires some religious faith.
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