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    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif Chris@Xtremespeed's Avatar
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    Default Redline Time Attack Website Online

    Hey all, We've got the new RLTA site online today: www.RedlineTimeAttack.com Still needs tons of content, but we're working hard to get everything going again. Rules are posted as well. We're running an exhibition event this NOV 18 at Buttonwillow to test these new rules out. If you want to help me update the rules, please come on out. Run these rules first and let me know what you think. I'm sure I'll need to make changes before the 2013 series takes hold.

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    Hey Chris, I'm glad to see the new RLTA taking shape.
    I won't be able to make it to the Nov 18th event but would love to come out and get my feet wet in the next event.
    As for the rules, maybe you can clarify this because there is something that I just can't think of a reason for -
    Save unlimited, all other classes require keeping the OEM glass and interior.
    Even ignoring the way my car is built , I can see how many track cars that are driven to and from the track can't comply with the rules on gutting being so strict, and this begs the question - why are the rules so strict?
    For example, in Mod class one can already modify the suspension pickup points AND run active aero, yet removing the carpet seems like a big no no that throws you in unlimited.

    Just asking, I can think of a few of my customer cars that could have participated in the RLTA Mod but will default to unlimited with the way the rules are written, where the chance of being competitive is exactly 0.
    Last edited by Blackbird; 10-10-2012 at 08:29 AM.

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    I wanna go fast! thepass's Avatar
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    Chris, great to see this series coming back!

    I'm glad Moti brought up the question about interiors - it's the same thing I was wondering. I drive to/from every track, am registered for the street, and run street tires, but the car has gutted doors, no carpet, and a "minimalized" dash. Basically the car would nearly fit into Street, or would fit into Mod with room to spare to do further modifications except for the interior rules. I definitely understand Street class requiring an interior that is very near to fully intact, but for Mod class the interior rules seem harsh given the level of alterations alowed elsewhere on the car in that class. Maybe some further clarification on the rules would help - it says "fully gutted" isn't allowed, but then is rather vague about how much is allowed - carpet for example isn't mentioned at all. Door glass is another area where it's vague - doesn't say if it must be there or not, although no door glass usually falls into the "gutted" category, but then further down the rules for Mod it says that IF the door glass remains, it must be rolled down while on-track, so it sounds like it can be removed..

    Oh, and section 19-9.1 refers to a super-secret Super Modified Class which I don't think is supposed to exist?

    Great to see this coming back and thanks for all your work on it!
    -Ryan
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    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif Chris@Xtremespeed's Avatar
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    To answers some of your questions Moti. For Modified Class under Interior (18-5) it clearly states all carpet and headliner may be removed. OEM glass and/or door panels can be removed IF a roll cage with side impact protection is utilized. Perhaps I should make that more clear in MOD class section of the rules, but you find all that in the general rules under roll bar and safety items. That's how RLTA rules have always been for interior for MOD class. Let me know if you have any more questions.

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    Thanks for that 19-9.1 typo Ryan. I fixed that along with a few other updates as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris@Xtremespeed View Post
    To answers some of your questions Moti. For Modified Class under Interior (18-5) it clearly states all carpet and headliner may be removed. OEM glass and/or door panels can be removed IF a roll cage with side impact protection is utilized. Perhaps I should make that more clear in MOD class section of the rules, but you find all that in the general rules under roll bar and safety items. That's how RLTA rules have always been for interior for MOD class. Let me know if you have any more questions.
    Chris, I checked out the site and cant wait for more content. I did notice that you had In 18-5.2 a section stating the "glove box" must be present. That seems "new" to me, as I've always run my personal cars in modified, and never had a glove box (but did always run a full dash). I'm not saying I want a "ross rule" but why this addition? There are lots of race cars, that ditch the box because it has a bad latch or it opens during hard cornering, etc, etc.

    I say this for a few reasons. 1) Modified is a great catch all class for "slower" race cars *cough* like mine *cough* because we don't want to compete with 11ty billion HP cars, or our class runs on 888's or the like. 2) Based on safety, how should one secure a glove box in a dash that is gutted? I ask because I've never seen a top tier mod car w/o a gutted dash. So securing a glove box is not easy with nothing there. I see this as partially a safety issue of trying to secure something that opens with nothing to really secure it to.

    I'd love to see that specific wording about the glove box removed. Past that, the rules look spot on that they used to be, and I love them that way.

    Oh, is there any way you could report all the results from the previous RTA's from years gone by?

    Good luck on the 18th!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris@Xtremespeed View Post
    To answers some of your questions Moti. For Modified Class under Interior (18-5) it clearly states all carpet and headliner may be removed. OEM glass and/or door panels can be removed IF a roll cage with side impact protection is utilized. Perhaps I should make that more clear in MOD class section of the rules, but you find all that in the general rules under roll bar and safety items. That's how RLTA rules have always been for interior for MOD class. Let me know if you have any more questions.
    What about dash removal for mod? Most of the wheel to wheel racers are eligible for Mod but few have the OEM dash. It would be impossible to fit the OEM dash over our gauges, ECU mounting plate and such.
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    Ross - I'll look into that. A glove box seems to be redundant.

    Emilio - For MOD class, the original idea is to keep the cars as original appearing as possible. MOD Class still largely represents the original time attack car in that it's built for showcasing go-fast products with out becoming a full-on race car, and maybe more importantly appeals to the media coverage of time attack as well. The cars in MOD class still have to retain much of the factory look and feel. That's why the OEM dash is important for this class.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris@Xtremespeed View Post
    Ross - I'll look into that. A glove box seems to be redundant.

    Emilio - For MOD class, the original idea is to keep the cars as original appearing as possible. MOD Class still largely represents the original time attack car in that it's built for showcasing go-fast products with out becoming a full-on race car, and maybe more importantly appeals to the media coverage of time attack as well. The cars in MOD class still have to retain much of the factory look and feel. That's why the OEM dash is important for this class.
    I understand but I think that's what's was wrong with it to begin with. There are only a few shops with the money to build an unrestricted rules engine and stick in what is essentially a street car just for TA. Amateurs can't afford those motors. There are legions of wheel to wheel racers with modest power and gutted interiors (like Moti) that would love to participate but there is no real place for them in traditional TA rules.

    If your goal is to bring in big money teams and hope to make money from media coverage and co-branding, then OEM dash with $40K engines is the right formula. If you want more participation from the grassroots competitor on a budget, restrict the engines (restrict $$) and leave everything else open. Ripping the interior and dash out costs nothing.

    This is the philosophical fork in the road. Continue TA in the US as it began in Japan: a mechanism for a small number of tuners to sell parts or
    evolve into a grass roots competition with far more cars competing. Two entirely different business models. One is glamorous until it inevitably runs out of money. The other is not so glamorous but might be more sustainable as a business.

    - Autocross is, by a huge margin, the single largest form of automotive motorsport in the US, by participation.
    - NASA has quickly gained a large and growing membership in Time Trial and road racing with their Performance Touring series
    which classes cars according to power to weight ratio and the racers choice of a limited total number of mods.

    No one asked my opinion on this but here it is anyway.
    I think that not having some control over power to weight ratio in some classes will keep TA from ever growing substantially in the US.
    Forcing arcane rules leftover from 15 year old Japanese TA rules sets like OEM dash but allowing and unrestricted engine, brakes and suspension restricts every class down to a small handful of shops that can afford to build such a car.
    WWW.949RACING.COM
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    But obviously I just dont get it. -fatbillybob

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    Thanks Emilio for saying everything that I didn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris@Xtremespeed View Post
    Ross - I'll look into that. A glove box seems to be redundant.
    Oh, I was simply asking for you to remove the "glove box" stipulation, and allow people to run a ful dash, sans glovebox.

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    I have a few questions for you guys, and take these with a big grain of salt because im merely a fan looking in from the outside.

    I have always felt the mod and street class particularly the awd group are too close to one another. The fact you have mod class cars bolting on cats and swapping tires to compete in a lower class is like a heavy weight fighter taking a sh*t to make a lower weight. Do you think that it is possible you are over classifying and end up with too many groups that creates overlapping each others times? Or are you approaching it with the idea of having additional classes will boost participation?

    I feel like time attack is already a very grass roots form of motor racing with a very small demographic. And again one of the biggest participation deterrents for me in the past was how close the mod and street class was. I would be either barely over qualify for enthusiast class or be EXTREMELY under qualified to even be remotely competitive in street class. That is not to say that street class should not be as fast as it is but if you have cars running both classes and the only major different is tires why bother?

    on a side note this seems silly to me, "mod class as close to stock appearing as possible" I dont think retaining a stock dash is going to prevent a consumer from buying or not buying an intake, exhaust etc from a given company....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris@Xtremespeed View Post
    Emilio - For MOD class, the original idea is to keep the cars as original appearing as possible. MOD Class still largely represents the original time attack car in that it's built for showcasing go-fast products with out becoming a full-on race car, and maybe more importantly appeals to the media coverage of time attack as well. The cars in MOD class still have to retain much of the factory look and feel. That's why the OEM dash is important for this class.
    I dont plan to compete in TA but if youre looking for different types of perspectives ill respond with a few thoughts also. Maybe its because i dont have much experience with TA, but ive never understood these points, like the part where you said:

    "MOD Class still largely represents the original time attack car in that it's built for showcasing go-fast products with out becoming a full-on race car..."

    It doesnt make sense to me when there are TA cars with a ton of power and all sorts of mods, but as soon as you start gutting a cars interior regardless of its power/mods its classified as a full-on race car. Take my Evo as an example. I never had the budget to race and run TA, but if i did i think my car would end up in the unlimited classes. An Evo prepped for ST2 with a CW around 3200lbs and 345whp running in some unlimited TA class probably wont work. If youre trying to attract a specific type of demographic, i totally understand. If not, im sure there are guys like me who race with NASA/SCCA that would run a few TA events but they dont because their car falls into some crazy class. Im sure you have your hands full so good luck moving forward.
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    Chris,

    Go back and look at your rules from 2008. We all loved that rule set. You had stock/enthusiast class which was perfect for attracting consumers, not shops. Street class where small shops like Evasive, Berk and even some amateur garage creations could compete and podium. Mod class for the larger vendors. And of course unlimited, where we'd all drool and dream of driving.

    What burned me and why I departed was the lack of enforcement of the rules. Even though stock class stated it was for driver owned cars, shop cars with hot shoes were allowed in. This among other gross infractions that were ignored or told "we won't allow that at the next event."
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    Jim - These are basically the same rules from 2008/2009 season. I made some more restrictions for Street Class, and the Enthusiast Class is pretty much what the stock was in 2008, just renamed.

    All other suggestions and opinions are great, and I read all of them. I expect the rules will need to change with the times. However, the rule set I'm releasing now was able to attract the largest group of competitors in the past. I actually don't expect to many big teams to attend at first. The Enthusiast and Street Class are always the largest and I expect it will be the same this time around. The drivers and teams that race in various wheel to wheel racing have always had the most trouble converting to Time Attack. There is a class for wheel to wheel racers and many privateers and shops with low budgets have made a name for themselves in RTA of past years. One of the best examples is Matt Andrews with his Flying Miata. An Unlimited Class car that did very well and did podium in time attacks against cars with twice the power. Time Attack will always have big budget cars with builds that are not possible in the wheel to wheel racing world. That's the challenge of time attack. Build a car that bests the best. Plenty of ghetto-fabulous teams have come in and done just that. And that's where part of the appeal lies in the MOD, and Unlimited Classes.

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    #1
    In the beginning, i thought there were 3 classes, but further down there were 4. Class names are inconsistent like Super modified and then they call it Unlimited.

    #2
    3.1.4 TECHNICAL CHIEF
    The REDLINE TIME ATTACK TECHNICAL CHIEF (including any of his designees) is the
    authority in determining and enforcing technical regulations. TECHNICAL CHEIF has the
    authority to amend and/or add to the rules and to make adjustments to car specifications on the
    spot, if deemed necessary.
    Teams will be notified of any changes made at the course by written
    bulletin when possible.

    This could be an issue of allowing something on someones car and disallowing on someone else's car. Rules specific to a car can be change at a moment's notice.

    #3
    2.6 PENALTIES
    2.6.1 Any participant, official, entrant, or other person violating these rules and regulations, or
    any conditions related to the event, or any special rules of a course, may be penalized as provided
    by the REDLINE TIME ATTACK RULES AND REGULATIONS. The authority to assess
    penalties is not limited to violations occurring during the course of a racing competition. Before
    imposing any penalty, the CHIEF STEWARD, or his designee, shall investigate any alleged rules
    violations and collect, or hear, such evidence as deemed necessary at his discretion.
    2.6.2 The penalties which may be assessed are:
    Reprimand:
    • The CHIEF STEWARD, or other authority may impose a reprimand. A reprimand against a
    REDLINE TIME ATTACK driver shall be noted in his file, as will be any or all of the following
    penalties:
    Fine and/or loss of prize money;
    A fine up to $10,000 or penalty may be imposed by the President of REDLINE TIME
    ATTACK against any entrant, driver, or participant for conduct detrimental to the Organization,
    or the Organization’s clients or partners.

    • The CHIEF STEWARD may impose a fine or penalty.
    • A driver’s competition privileges are automatically under suspension, and shall remain under
    suspension until payment of fines is received, or penalty is lifted.
    • In addition to a fine, a penalty, or loss of some, or all prize monies due may be imposed.
    • Any entrant or driver who is disqualified in any competition shall automatically forfeit all rights
    to awards in that competition.
    Probation of REDLINE TIME ATTACK competition privileges.
    • The terms of probation shall be in writing and signed by the CHIEF STEWARD. A copy shall
    be given to the driver, or entrant, or other person penalized.
    • The notice and terms of probation provided for in paragraph above shall be sent within seven (7)
    days after probation has been imposed. Upon the termination of probation, the CHIEF
    STEWARD shall send a copy of the termination of probation. Probation will be recorded in the
    driver’s file.
    The CHIEF STEWARD may impose suspension of competition privileges for a maximum of
    twelve (12) months.

    • The CHIEF STEWARD may impose a loss of event points and/or accrued points if applicable.
    • The President of REDLINE TIME ATTACK may only impose expulsion from REDLINE
    TIME ATTACK.
    2.6.3 Range Of Penalties
    The CHIEF STEWARD has the right to impose any penalty, combination of penalties or action
    he/she feels is appropriate.
    2.6.4 Amendment of placing awards
    In those cases where a penalty of disqualification is imposed, the CHIEF STEWARD shall
    declare the resulting amendment to the placing and awards, and shall decide if the next
    competitor in order shall be advanced and shall see that awards presented are consistent with the
    revised finishing order.
    2.6.4 Publication of Penalty
    REDLINE TIME ATTACK shall have the right to publicize that it has penalized any person,
    organization, or automobile, and the reasons therefore. The persons, or body referred to in the
    notice shall have no right of action against REDLINE TIME ATTACK, or against any person
    publishing such notice.

    There can be fines and penalties imposed up to $10,000 and suspension up to 12 months. Ehhh...Kinda excessive. That pretty much just drives people away if they do receive one. Maybe $25-$100 fine and, 1 race ban/suspension is more appropriate. Can you state any examples in which those fines and suspension will be imposed? What if we disagree with you or someone, or make a negative remark, or unhappy about something in particular for whatever reason and wanted to vent/discuss. What would happen? Is there any appeals process? Who would hear this appeal? It would be unproductive if the same person who imposes the fine or suspension to hear the same appeal. Doesn't really make sense. Is there a neutral third party or panel of 3-5 people. Majority wins. $10k, even $1k fine is alot of money. Think about what this would do to your customers.

    #4
    Not allowing crew to work on the car in the hot pits when time attack session is out is bizarre to me. Technically doesn't say driver can't, so I guess that is okay. What is the reasoning? Maybe say you can't swap tires for new ones. This will limit big baller budgets. Like people showing up with 4 sets of stickers and just keep swapping them out during the time attack sessions.

    #5
    I like how they got rid of the stupid minimum height rules and cat rule for street class.

    #6
    No explicit mention of aftermarket turbos or built motors is allowed in Street class. I may be wrong. If I am, I apologize, just point me in right direction.

    #7
    I am confused if all 4 classes run at the same time during the Time Attack Session or that was pointed towards Super Session. If 4 classes do run at the same time, there will for SURE be unintentional impeding due to everyone basically wanting to run hot laps and some are faster and slower than others.

    #8
    How many practice sessions, qualifying sessions, time attack session will there be?

    #9
    There is no Appeals process that I read if a formal protest is made.

    #10
    4.2.3 Protests against any entry, driver, team, or a vehicle’s eligibility shall be made no later than
    4 hours before the start of the Time Attack round.

    What!? What if you need to protest after the first time attack session, that makes it impossible to protest. Since time attack session come within 1-1.5hrs of the next session.

    Also, the rules are fine and dandy on paper. But do they have the resources, manpower, funds, to execute , implement, enforce to the letter on the ground? Will things start to slide, rules not being enforced, timing not working ,etc. What are they going to do to ensure a smooth operation from beginning to end. I am not saying it will be an easy task to accomplish. But since they set themselves up for the task, they better be able to execute without 40 glitches and problems running havok throughout the event. It seems they need about at least 20-25 or so dedicated and committed people to run it as it is written. Spotters, stewards, chiefs, timing, tech inspection, assistants to said officials, registration personnel, awards people, hot pits gridding people, etc. Yes or no, will you or do you have the manpower to execute the rules as written? Like look at your resources and staff, imagine everything that will go on during the event, does it sound as if you will be short staffed or spread thin. Think of all possible problems that might come up, and rectify it before it becomes an issue. Already have a solution in place so it doesn't happen. Just looking out for you so it runs smoothly. Better we talk and rectify it now than on the day of.


    These are just issues I remember on the top of my head. Chris, care to comment on any of these points?
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    Zhong, Tl;dr.

    Emilio, perfectly on the money. It becomes pointless for any 'real' racecar to compete in these TA events as you are immediately bundled into unlimited class due to removal of glass, dash, etc etc which have no real practical performance benefit.
    Last edited by hakeem; 10-10-2012 at 06:12 PM.

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    Zhong - #1 There have been 4 classes for some time now. Enthusiast Class was added in 2008.

    #2 This is NOT designed to append the rules as the tech chief sees fit. If a change is made to the rules by the tech chief it will be because we made a mistake. If we change a rule it will be changed across the board and not just for one racer. Like you said, some rules work well on paper, other need to be addressed.

    #3 Pretty standard penalties rules, but if we need to augment them we can. The Penalties can be re worked and are really set up for people who get WAY out of control and cause problems for staff and competitors.

    #4 We have never, nor we we allow work on the car during the time attack session. You're to have everything ready to go for the time attack run. That's part of what time attack is all about.

    #5 I agree completely!

    #6 The rules regarding this are in the engine and drive-train portion of the street class rules.

    #7 Each class runs it's time attack session separately, Some practice session may have mixed classes running at the same time.

    #8 On a time attack weekend, Saturday is all practice. Sunday will see a min of 3 practice sessions, and 3 time attack sessions.

    #9 I'll look into that. There should be an appeal process in place.

    #10 It may be possible to change the timing, however we need all protests in a timely manner. I'll look into rewording that as well.

    We'll have enough staff to run the event. I've been running time attacks since 2005 and I'm well aware of what is needed at any given event.
    It's a big deal for me to make sure we can staff and enforce the rules we have. I'm sure I'll see you at some of these events Zong, so you can let me know how we're doing as we go.
    There is lot to do for sure. I have a great staff, some old Redline guys that go way back to the first ever RLTA event at Spring Mt in 2005, and a bunch of great new people that are super enthusiastic about getting RLTA off to a great start. I know it'll be a challenge, but we're all up the task! Thanks for your thoughts. I hope you'll be at the event on NOV 18.

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    thanks for addressing all the issues i raised chris. i do appreciate you listening and having a dialogue with your potential customers. You bet i will be at the november 18th inaugural event at buttonwillow. $150 is too good a deal to pass up. It might be my only chance to podium before this series takes off in 2013. . Buttonwillow and I have some unfinished business. 1:55!!! . Also cold weather ftw.
    Zhong (Evo IX) | Angry Panda Racing

    1:53.396 @ BRP CW13 - 11/14/13
    1:47.2xx @ Laguna Seca - 11/28/10
    2:03.026 @ Thill CCW Bypass - 12/20/14
    2:05.100 @ CVR CCW - 1/16/11
    1:58.151 @ CVR CW - 5/5/13
    1:25.56x @ WSIR - 10/13/13
    1:23.128 @ SOW CW - 7/27/14
    1:22.2xx @ SOW CCW - 7/26/14
    1:46.0xx @ ACS Roval - 11/23/14
    1:11.299 @ ACS Infield - 5/18/14

    Fastest Limited/Mod Class Evo in Time Attack at WSIR
    2nd Fastest Limited/Mod Class Evo in Time Attack at BRP 13CW

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    Quote Originally Posted by spazegun2213 View Post
    Oh, I was simply asking for you to remove the "glove box" stipulation, and allow people to run a ful dash, sans glovebox.
    OMG! Here we go. Welcome to American motorsports where everyone wants the rules to fit there personal situation. It's this kind of mentality that fragments much of the race classes in the US. European motorsport enthusiasts don't seem to let this kind of self centered thinking fragment their classes.
    - Chris, I'm looking forward to running with RTA with whatever rules you see fit even if I need to modify my car to make it work. Thanks for giving us an opportunity to do this.
    Last edited by Ryneen; 10-11-2012 at 12:01 AM.

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