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Thread: 2013 SCCA T1 rules posted

  1. #21
    dirty smack talker hakeem's Avatar
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    I think I'm confused; why do you have to choke or weigh your car down for the new T1? Can't you run it exactly as it is, or are you talking about running in T2 now?

  2. #22
    Chest hair required Olitho's Avatar
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    Oops. I meant the new T2 class chokes down the Corvettes from the old T1 class or we become the new STO aka T1.

    Peter Keane on the CRB is out of control and he needs to go.....
    To the right of The Sheriff. Isn't everyone?

  3. #23
    dirty smack talker hakeem's Avatar
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    Trying to be constructive when I say this: somewhere, the message of what the problem is with this new class got very confused. I've kept up with all the discussions you guys have had publicly, and read the entire 27 page thread on sccaforums.

    Initially, before the rules were published, the complaint was that T1 cars shouldn't have to go slower to accommodate a bunch of cars like the 370Z, Evo, etc. I think everyone understood this argument, including me.

    Now that the rules have been published, I am not exactly sure what the complaint is. You can all still run your cars as-is, and the old STO cars have anywhere up to 800lb weight penalties and restrictors to equalize them. If anything, the guys who built the serious STO cars are the ones that just got completely ****ed. I think I'd put my money on a 3200lb T1 car vs a 4000lb STO car.

    If you don't want to run splitters or other aero devices, you don't have to...the guys who choose to will have a 75lb+ penalty.

    It seems like a pretty good ruleset and allows a much wider range of cars to compete. Maybe the way these decisions are reached is the bigger issue.
    Last edited by hakeem; 10-11-2012 at 09:18 AM.

  4. #24
    Chest hair required Olitho's Avatar
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    Your voice might be a good counter-argument. Should I consider temporarily adding you to our T1 mail list?

    Remember, we have been at this since June so there are many dug-in positions and even some hard feelings against the CRB that are not apparent to someone just coming in to the fray.
    To the right of The Sheriff. Isn't everyone?

  5. #25
    dirty smack talker hakeem's Avatar
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    Sure, sent you an email...

  6. #26
    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
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    75lbs for aero? In a corvette? I think I'd take that any day of the week and twice on sunday.

    Maybe it will get better with time, but I think the already awful parity in T1 just got much worse.

    What the CRB needs to do is stop being sneaky and write an honest mission statement for their classes. If they plan to sabotage older cars, they need to say so. If the goal is to incentivize old T1 cars into adding wings and things, they need to say so even if it isn't good politic.

    What grinds my gears is when they do such a poor job with parity that you can't tell if they are incompetent or up to something.
    fatbillybob, redtopz and suki101 like this.

  7. #27
    Senior Member fatbillybob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hakeem View Post
    I think I'm confused; why do you have to choke or weigh your car down for the new T1? Can't you run it exactly as it is, or are you talking about running in T2 now?

    For 2013:

    STO is the new t1
    Old t1 is now t2
    2012 t1 cars must run in t1 as is or up power etc to be like STO car or detune plus weight to run in t2


    Old st2 is new st2 on roids 8hplb w aero.
    New st3 is 9.0 no aero. Or 9.5 w aero.
    Confirm on the NASA stuff I'm not a NASA guy.

  8. #28
    dirty smack talker hakeem's Avatar
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    Carl, is it clear that T1 cars actually have to power up to be like STO? From what I can tell, the STO cars have to run restrictors and carry tons of ballast. One of the STO guys in the thread on the other forum had calculated his STO C6 would now need to be 3950lbs!

  9. #29
    Spec Backhoe Champion redtopz's Avatar
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    OK, I read through the new "T1" (now STO) rules for next year. Here is what I calculate I could do (correct me if I'm wrong somewhere):

    Using my ST2 car as a base with a stock LS6 engine I can run STO at 3135 lbs plus

    75 lbs for wing
    75 lbs for splitter

    So I could run at 3285 lbs. That's only 35 lbs more than I run now so I put in a coolsuit box and I'm good to go.

    However, I can also install a racing camshaft in my LS6 and pull my restrictor. So I should go from 366 whp to maybe 430 whp. Yeah, that should get me down to sub 1:40 at Infineon and maybe 1:47 laps at Thunderhill (bypass). So only about 7 seconds a lap faster than a current T1 car!

    Can STO run slicks at no penalty?
    Last edited by redtopz; 10-11-2012 at 12:14 PM.
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  10. #30
    dirty smack talker hakeem's Avatar
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    Bill, not sure you are able to run a racing camshaft. I don't see any additional lift allowed in the new rules for the LS6 unless I missed it.

    Quote Originally Posted by redtopz View Post
    Can STO run slicks at no penalty?
    According to the new rules, tires must conform to 9.3.45 which reads:

    9.3.45. TIRES
    Tires shall be 124 (“U”) mph rated or better unless otherwise specified or controlled.
    In the Improved Touring, Super Touring, American Sedan, Showroom Stock, Spec Miata and Touring categories, only DOT approved tires are permitted. Racing, recapped, or re-grooved tires are not allowed. Tire size is unrestricted unless otherwise stated. The only modifications allowed to tires are having treads “shaved” or “trued.”

    TL;DR answer: no, they can't run slicks.
    Last edited by hakeem; 10-11-2012 at 12:27 PM.

  11. #31
    Spec Backhoe Champion redtopz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hakeem View Post
    Bill, not sure you are able to run a racing camshaft. I don't see any additional lift allowed in the new rules for the LS6 unless I missed it.
    Section E.5. Alternate camshafts are free. Lift is limited to 0.600".
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  12. #32
    dirty smack talker hakeem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redtopz View Post
    Section E.5. Alternate camshafts are free. Lift is limited to 0.600".
    I wonder wtf this means. Is your engine OEM?

    27. Valve lift is limited to .600 inches. OEM engines must retain OEM valve lift and duration.

  13. #33
    Spec Backhoe Champion redtopz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hakeem View Post
    I wonder wtf this means. Is your engine OEM?

    27. Valve lift is limited to .600 inches. OEM engines must retain OEM valve lift and duration.
    According to pages 15 and 16 the LS6 can be modified and run at 3135 lbs. Some engines are listed as OEM and some are not. Only the ones listed as OEM must retain the factory heads and camshafts. Head porting comes with a 3% weight penalty. So if you have an OEM LS2 you can run at 3200 lbs. If you have a modded LS2, you must run at 3400 lbs. This is SCCA. Rather than just coming out and saying what hp they want you to run at they come up with all these random restrictors and weights. Who wants to spend the most money and time figuring out the best combo? You might think you have a great setup and then get to runoffs and get spanked by 5 seconds a lap.
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  14. #34
    Senior Member fatbillybob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hakeem View Post
    Carl, is it clear that T1 cars actually have to power up to be like STO? From what I can tell, the STO cars have to run restrictors and carry tons of ballast. One of the STO guys in the thread on the other forum had calculated his STO C6 would now need to be 3950lbs

    Then bill wrote: Who wants to spend the most money and time figuring out the best combo? You might think you have a great setup and then get to runoffs and get spanked by 5 seconds a lap. !
    This is the problem with STO. It is a black hole. Sure the C5 can race there with no mods but how do you compete with Pintaric's viper or the pay day loan king $500,000 Porsche? They might have weight but I have no clue what that will do. I don't want to be killed on the track with 4000lb SUV's either. I do know that my T1 car is no where close to either of those two cars and I don't even want to know how much I would have to spend to get there. There is also a rumour that many of the hot STO cars will go GT2. Well the STO class was so dead at runoffs that the field was padded with like SSB cars just to have a national race. So if T1 goes to STO and STO goes to GT2 the real problem is that "musical chairs" is mental masterbation with no value added to increase the number of drivers. That is what the club needs not wasting time and pissing off drivers with musical chairs. In fact dumpping the entire Touring classes into upheaval will most likely result in drivers parking cars until the dust settles. No body wants to be left standing without a chair after spending big bucks for a class that is desolate. Last year I could have been the STO division champion if I just showed up to 1 STO race!

  15. #35
    Senior Member fatbillybob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hakeem View Post
    I think one of the things (and there are many more) that has hurt SCCA over the recent years is the lack of a place for cars like mine to run. I haven't driven with SCCA since 2006 largely as I had no competitive class to race any of the cars I wanted to race.

    It definitely sucks for you guys to have to make concessions, but I feel like allowing a wider range of cars and attempting to balance them out is going to create a more interesting class in the long run. You'd certainly gain someone like me, probably flink, and others who have cars that can easily cross from whatever NASA class they came from.
    Well, We really don't care where you race. "It is all about US." The CorvetteMafia stands together to do whatever it takes to get our way.

    I hope you do realize I'm full of it!

    You make valid points and I'd like to race with you. The ruleset for NASA and SCCA are unlikely to be overturn but we have hope. I think the winning classes will be the ones with the closest cross classing. Will that be ST2/T1 or ST3/T2? If they are equal the cheaper class will win. Until people start spending money such as dynoing a C5 with headers and 52mm restrictor and C5 no headers and 65mm restrictor we will just be bench racing. The time for talking is ending soon.

  16. #36
    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
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    If I had a T1 car, I would enter it in the new STO/T1 in socal to score some tires, then bail on it as soon as anything faster than a T1 car showed up in the class. Then start a regional spec class.

  17. #37
    Spec Backhoe Champion redtopz's Avatar
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    I think Cal Club and SFR should break away from SCCA and have our own West Coast race club with our own National championship. Who needs this BS from SCCA when every Runoff is back in Wisconsin and they don't care about our interests? We can run the club properly and start spreading to the Northwest and into Nevada, Arizona, and Utah.
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  18. #38
    dirty smack talker hakeem's Avatar
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    I think for 2013 I am going to make my car T1 legal and see what happens. Worst case I run in ST2 without my rear diffuser and bigger fenders.

    Car crosses easily from T1 to ST2 but not vice versa, mostly due to bodywork rules.

    Hopefully get to battle with some of you guys next year!
    redtopz likes this.

  19. #39
    Chest hair required Olitho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hakeem View Post

    Hopefully get to battle with some of you guys next year!
    You can battle with us on the 27th and 28th at the PCRRC and BRP.

    Enter as a ST2 car....

    Cal Club - Pacific Coast Road Racing Championships
    To the right of The Sheriff. Isn't everyone?

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    dirty smack talker hakeem's Avatar
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    Racing is off limits for the rest of the year...first child arriving shortly!

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