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    Default Engine Temperatures

    Guys those who track your car, what type of coolant and oil temperatures are you seeing at the track on a hot day?
    for Oil please point out where your sensor is located.

    This weekend I ran in Miami. About 80F / 86% Humidity. @ 2:45PM
    https://www.wunderground.com/persona...0170618/mdaily

    Car temps were as follows?

    Engine coolant MAX: 228F
    Engine Oil (Right after pump going into filter) 250.5F

    I have an oil cooler which was cooling the oil down to 205F.

    I am wondering if these are within normal range.
    Thank you

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    Car is a honda S2000

    Water ranges from 198-201, 201 would be seen on 90+ degree days

    Oil is 235-240, again range is dependent on ambient.

    No oil cooler, but factory water/oil cooler retained and a large radiator.

    Oil temps taken at sandwich adapter, everything is datalogged to AIM so data is actual.

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    I have tracked many cars. I don't worry if water temp is under 220F. If I am racing, I won't back off till 225. Your 228F in a 80F day is worrying.

    I don't worry about oil temp too much. I would shoot for under 250F. But that's not possible on most cars without an oil cooler. But again, I don't worry too much unless it is over 280F. But even then, I don't back off if racing. I believe factory cars don't go to limp mode or set off warning light till past 300F. I would just change oil more often if I see more than 250F.

    Oil temp is almost always at sandwich plate or drain plug.

    Most people will tell you water temp of under 210-220. But There are discrepancies on oil temp, anywhere from 250-300F.
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    no one asked, but I thought I would share my oil cooler rant.
    many would disagree with me of letting oil temp go over 280F. But I dislike oil cooler for many reasons:

    1. oil cooler line may come off, sprung a leak. you are creating minimum 4 new points of connections routing through a busy engine bay.
    2. ss line cutting into other components if not routed carefully.
    3. I've seen many would let their oil drain forever during oil change. But they have over 1 quart of old oil sitting in an oil cooler. In most install, you can't get rid off all old oil if you have a cooler.
    4. create oil pressure issue if not done right.
    5. many install oil cooler in front of radiator. making radiator less effective.
    6. oil cooler might sprung a leak from rock hitting it. or from contact. extra point of failure.

    I've seen a ton of engine failure from issues above. but don't think I know of any engine that went kaboom because oil temp was too high.

    I am not against a well installed oil cooler, I have them on most of my race cars too. But unless I know my oil temp will exceed 280F consistently (all turbo cars) and/or need help controlling coolant temp, I would not bother installing an oil cooler. just change oil more often (I only use synthetic).
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    Same car here.
    Stock EJ257.
    oil temp is around 200-220 with aftermarket oil cooler+oem water/oil cooler+aftermarket koyo radiator, 90F.
    I'm not a fan of aftermarket oil cooler but my stock engine without oil cooler was overheating about 85F. It's simply unacceptable


    Since FRS doesn't even come with water/oil cooler in stock, I also installed an oil cooler even for 200hp.
    Last edited by jqsti2015; 06-19-2017 at 07:10 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bellwilliam View Post
    no one asked, but I thought I would share my oil cooler rant.
    many would disagree with me of letting oil temp go over 280F. But I dislike oil cooler for many reasons:

    1. oil cooler line may come off, sprung a leak. you are creating minimum 4 new points of connections routing through a busy engine bay.
    2. ss line cutting into other components if not routed carefully.
    3. I've seen many would let their oil drain forever during oil change. But they have over 1 quart of old oil sitting in an oil cooler. In most install, you can't get rid off all old oil if you have a cooler.
    4. create oil pressure issue if not done right.
    5. many install oil cooler in front of radiator. making radiator less effective.
    6. oil cooler might sprung a leak from rock hitting it. or from contact. extra point of failure.

    I've seen a ton of engine failure from issues above. but don't think I know of any engine that went kaboom because oil temp was too high.

    I am not against a well installed oil cooler, I have them on most of my race cars too. But unless I know my oil temp will exceed 280F consistently (all turbo cars) and/or need help controlling coolant temp, I would not bother installing an oil cooler. just change oil more often (I only use synthetic).

    All valid points. Often races end due to contact that damages oil coolers tucked behind grilles in the corners of bumper fascias. Porsches come to mind immediately. The contact wasn't severe enough to damage the car to keep it from continuing, but emptying the engine of its oil certainly would. At the very least, the car ends up sitting till a tow truck can pull it back to the pits for repair.

    Extreme temperatures can serve to thin engine oil in the short term and thicken it long term. By using good synthetic, and changing it often, you can avoid trouble. Adding an oil cooler needs to be done properly to keep its benefits from becoming one of the liabilities William mentioned.

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    Oil is the engine’s lifeblood and synthetic or not if you are routinely seeing temperatures North of 275F, you probably really need an oil cooler. If, in the hottest track conditions, you are seeing 250-255F and no trend higher, you are probably OK with just frequent oil changes.

    Oil coolers should normally be placed directly in front of the radiator and be in a position such that it “sees” good air flow. In such a (preferred) position, the engine heat dissipation capacity improvement easily outweighs the small reduction in air flow through the radiator. Secondly, in this position, the vulnerability of the cooler itself in minimized – damage to the oil cooler might also damage the radiator if the oil cooler wasn’t there. Placement should also consider minimizing line lengths and where possible the use of straight and 45-degree connectors for maximum flow.

    High quality lines and fittings should ALWAYS be used and we have a strong preference for braided nylon lines because they are both lightweight and less abrasive when compared to SS weave counterparts.

    I would only use an oil cooler from a supplier that openly publishes their specifications – such a Setrab. As the op points out, good flow is critically important. I would never install a Chinese-imported Mishimoto cooler on a vehicle of mine – EVER.
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    OP: What car, STI?

    The stock '05 I used to have would run water temps around 215-225F nominal in summer months. These cars can quickly overshoot that when charging in a slight draft (235-245F = too hot). They can take a long time to come back down while peddling it. The stock cooling system isn't adequate for more than a few laps at a time on triple digit days.

    Having some intimate knowledge of EJ25's reliability in ways that can't be described as cuddly, I can say your mechanical sympathy isn't misplaced.

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    My engine's too vintage for 250°. My oil is usually at 205-235 on track. I have two oil coolers and a fan, on a dry-sump 14-quart system. On very hot days, I take out my headlights so air can go directly to those coolers (which are in the front fenders).

    No water temps, since it's an air-cooled 911.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CoolTech View Post
    Oil is the engine’s lifeblood and synthetic or not if you are routinely seeing temperatures North of 275F, you probably really need an oil cooler. If, in the hottest track conditions, you are seeing 250-255F and no trend higher, you are probably OK with just frequent oil changes.

    Oil coolers should normally be placed directly in front of the radiator and be in a position such that it “sees” good air flow. In such a (preferred) position, the engine heat dissipation capacity improvement easily outweighs the small reduction in air flow through the radiator. Secondly, in this position, the vulnerability of the cooler itself in minimized – damage to the oil cooler might also damage the radiator if the oil cooler wasn’t there. Placement should also consider minimizing line lengths and where possible the use of straight and 45-degree connectors for maximum flow.

    High quality lines and fittings should ALWAYS be used and we have a strong preference for braided nylon lines because they are both lightweight and less abrasive when compared to SS weave counterparts.

    I would only use an oil cooler from a supplier that openly publishes their specifications – such a Setrab. As the op points out, good flow is critically important. I would never install a Chinese-imported Mishimoto cooler on a vehicle of mine – EVER.
    Well I have to admit that my oil cooler is a Mishimoto - and like I said it is cooling the oil down 35 deg F. according to my dash and logger (Motec).
    I am not to concerned with the oil temp. Because it coming out at 240F and going back in at 205F. I maybe add a larger oil pan (+1QT capacity) if the oil temps get higher. I looked at my logs and its between 230-240.
    However my coolant temp did peak at 228.2F. I am running a larger radiator than factory.

    Yes the car is a WRX STI. it is very possible that I may have ran the car on a higher boost setting at that time.. Need to go back and check.

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    What's your average water temp range?

    228F peak occasionally on that motor shouldn't be an issue. I'd be more concerned if there are circumstances that might send it soaring higher - such as a hotter day and/or drafting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FoxSTI View Post
    Well I have to admit that my oil cooler is a Mishimoto - and like I said it is cooling the oil down 35 deg F. according to my dash and logger (Motec).
    I am not to concerned with the oil temp. Because it coming out at 240F and going back in at 205F. I maybe add a larger oil pan (+1QT capacity) if the oil temps get higher. I looked at my logs and its between 230-240.
    However my coolant temp did peak at 228.2F. I am running a larger radiator than factory.
    few things you can try to drop coolant temp:

    1. oil cooler, which you did to a great effect, I doubt more oil cooling will help coolant temp much in your case.
    2. most effective mod for coolant temp is to seal around radiator. no air gets into engine bay other than through radiator. see #6
    3. low pressure in engine bay. which means hood vents (in right location) and a bottom tray. I often see people put a big hole towards air filter, for "cold air intake", not realizing it raises engine bay air pressure. making radiator less effective.
    4. run more water (ratio) in radiator if you aren't already are.
    5. cross flow radiator, being more efficient.
    6. 2nd most effective mod is to build a radiator duct. It doesn't need to be super fancy, some plastic sheet bend to shape will work well.

    where is your intercooler ? is it in front of the radiator ?
    Last edited by bellwilliam; 06-19-2017 at 11:21 PM.
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    Well I have to admit that my oil cooler is a Mishimoto
    Other than size/fitment concerns, the two biggest attributes of a heat exchanger are its BTU (shedding) capability AND its inherent delta pressure drop. When you are choosing Chinese-made components (like Mishimoto), you really have no idea of either specification. Install it and cross your fingers. Not my cup of tea.

    But, full disclosure - we compete with them in offering oil cooler solutions on a couple of different vehicles. In one such example, the pressure drop across the cooler for our Setrab-based solution is 0.7psi. In comparison, the specific Mishimoto-developed solution saw a measured (by Mishimoto) pressure drop of 7.0 PSI. More telling, Mishimoto engineers posted these results in a thread - yet had no idea that these were absolutely HORRIBLE numbers. In fact, the 7.0psi pressure drop was posted as a positive attribute of their solution. Scary stuff!
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoolTech View Post
    Other than size/fitment concerns, the two biggest attributes of a heat exchanger are its BTU (shedding) capability AND its inherent delta pressure drop. When you are choosing Chinese-made components (like Mishimoto), you really have no idea of either specification. Install it and cross your fingers. Not my cup of tea.

    But, full disclosure - we compete with them in offering oil cooler solutions on a couple of different vehicles. In one such example, the pressure drop across the cooler for our Setrab-based solution is 0.7psi. In comparison, the specific Mishimoto-developed solution saw a measured (by Mishimoto) pressure drop of 7.0 PSI. More telling, Mishimoto engineers posted these results in a thread - yet had no idea that these were absolutely HORRIBLE numbers. In fact, the 7.0psi pressure drop was posted as a positive attribute of their solution. Scary stuff!
    Maybe..
    Why don't you send me one of your coolers to compare. I am going back end of July.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanB View Post
    What's your average water temp range?

    228F peak occasionally on that motor shouldn't be an issue. I'd be more concerned if there are circumstances that might send it soaring higher - such as a hotter day and/or drafting.
    SeanB I have to check but if I recall if was somewhere between 220 - 201. I don't have access to my logs at the moment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bellwilliam View Post
    few things you can try to drop coolant temp:

    1. oil cooler, which you did to a great effect, I doubt more oil cooling will help coolant temp much in your case.
    2. most effective mod for coolant temp is to seal around radiator. no air gets into engine bay other than through radiator. see #6
    3. low pressure in engine bay. which means hood vents (in right location) and a bottom tray. I often see people put a big hole towards air filter, for "cold air intake", not realizing it raises engine bay air pressure. making radiator less effective.
    4. run more water (ratio) in radiator if you aren't already are.
    5. cross flow radiator, being more efficient.
    6. 2nd most effective mod is to build a radiator duct. It doesn't need to be super fancy, some plastic sheet bend to shape will work well.

    where is your intercooler ? is it in front of the radiator ?
    Hi Bellwilliam

    intercooler is at the top of the hood (OEM top mount configuration) and I think I like it there as it doesn't cover up the radiator.

    2- I have a small shroud on either side but it can probably be better and provide a better seal? Do you have any examples (pics) you can share?
    3 - I am running the bottom cover. I have one of my brake ducts hoses disconnected (hole) into the engine bay.
    4 - I am running pre-mixed. No good?
    5- I will look into that (too bad I recently upgraded mine - again to a mishimoto which works great compared to the OEM)
    6- What is a rad. duct?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FoxSTI View Post
    Hi Bellwilliam

    intercooler is at the top of the hood (OEM top mount configuration) and I think I like it there as it doesn't cover up the radiator.

    2- I have a small shroud on either side but it can probably be better and provide a better seal? Do you have any examples (pics) you can share?
    3 - I am running the bottom cover. I have one of my brake ducts hoses disconnected (hole) into the engine bay.
    4 - I am running pre-mixed. No good?
    5- I will look into that (too bad I recently upgraded mine - again to a mishimoto which works great compared to the OEM)
    6- What is a rad. duct?
    Both of my oil coolers are mishimoto, simply because of cheaper price($500)
    maybe try to remove oem liquid to liquid cooler? I've seen a test showing removing oem cooler brings down oil temp.
    Last edited by jqsti2015; 06-20-2017 at 12:54 PM.
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    I've seen a test showing removing oem cooler brings down oil temp.
    Perhaps by now it is clear that I have a bias against Mishimoto - and almost all of what they do. Here's another gem and hopefully not what you are referring to. In a Mustang forum, Mishimoto personnel were posting data to show to the Mustang community the results of their newly introduced oil cooler for the 4-cylinder EcoBoost Mustang. The “before” graph showed oil temps of the OEM oil-to-water cooler during steady state, light-throttle driving. The “after” graph line was the same car with the OEM cooler removed and a Mishimoto air-to-oil cooler installed. The after line was relatively horizontal at about 165F or so whereas the “before” line was about 195F-200F. The commentary from the Mishimoto “engineers” was that this proved the efficiency of their newly designed oil cooler. Worse still was the number of readers who looked at these “results” and were convinced of the superiority of the Mishimoto kit.

    OMG!! What did the test really show/prove??? Absolutely NOTHING! The characteristics of a water-to-oil (OEM) cooler is that the oil temps will approach water temperatures under “normal” operating conditions. This is just an inherent trait of this design – and by the way even desirable for the OEMs as it helps oil temps to come up to operating temps more quickly. Steady-state driving of the air-to-oil cooler is such that oil temps are not that much related to water temps and the oil temps (under normal driving) will be more closely linked to ambient temps – and consequently lower that the OEM set-up under this normal driving scenario.

    But….. almost no one installs an oil cooler for normal driving….. oil coolers are installed to improve the BTU (shedding) capacity over OEM. The reality is that the OEM water-to-oil systems are actually VERY efficient – much more efficient by size compared to a typical aftermarket air-to-oil cooler. (Think about heating up a steel bolt until it is glowing red and then tossing it into a bucket of room temperature water. You can almost literally reach in and pick up the bolt immediately. Take the same bolt and heat it up to a glowing red and then sit there and blow on it. How many MINUTES must pass before you can touch it without being burned? Not the most applicable analogy, but you get the point.)

    But let’s come back to the CLOWNS at Mishimoto. The data point that they provided to rationalize the purchase of their Mustang oil cooler is absolutely meaningless! They showed absolutely NO data on the thermal results under high-stress, hot-weather driving. The FACT is that the higher-efficiency OEM system may actually be BETTER than their aftermarket solution. Their test data gives NO indication of what can be expected. I honestly don’t know what is more offensive. 1) Either their “engineers” are really, really naïve/stupid and have no business designing coolings solutions, or; 2) They are purposely manipulating their customers/prospects with VERY misleading data.

    In our own testing of Oil Coolers for (a very small number) of OEM cars, without exception we have witnessed the best results by leaving the OEM system in place (where there is one) and ADDING an additional cooler. Think about it this way. The OEM water-to-oil cooler will have some measureable specification (often known only to the OEM). Let’s say it is 30,000 btu. Let’s imagine that under some extreme driving conditions the car really needs 45,000 btu of capability. In this scenario, if you add a small aftermarket oil cooler with a capacity of 15,000 btu, then you will have a nice system and you should see a lot of improvement on the max oil temps that you may see. Conversely (aka the Mishimoto approach on the EcoBoost Mustang), you advocate the removal of the OEM system and you install the Chinese heat exchanger with a thermal capacity of 25,000 btu…. then you have unwittingly LOWERED the overall capacity of the system! I will absolutely guarantee you that this second scenario will show the steady-state graphs that Mishimoto published – namely a 30-35F “improvement” over OEM in “steady state” driving. But for the scenario that the user really cares about, the system is WORSE than the OEM set-up.
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    Cooltech,

    great information but Let me share some specifics about my setup to avoid confusion and to base our discussions on some real data (which I have)

    I am running the factory oil warmer (or cooler as it is called) this is an Oil-to-water heat exchanger that sit right after the wet sump in my car. The oil then goes into the filter on an OEM setup.
    My mishimoto oil cooler has a sandwich plate plate adapter which is currently installed between said factory exchanger and the oil filter.

    I have a Temp sensor on the mishimoto thermostatic plate (85C) and another temp sensor at the outlet of the mishimoto oil cooler. Both are monitored and logged by my motec C125 (looking to upgrade btw so I will be posting it for sale)
    What I have seen / experience.

    During street driving which is not very often since this is my track car - 200-220F at the plate and 160-190 at the outlet.
    At the track, this weekend I saw, 240F at the plate and 205F at the outlet.

    I do not work for mishimoto, but I did buy their cooler. It seems to me that it is doing its job pretty well. Either I got lucky or mine was engineered okay.
    Send me one your cores to try out and I will place the same sensors on it and we can see how bad the mishimoto is...

    The reality is that 90% of the car enthusiasts do not track their cars (at least not in a road course) and just buy things to put them on the car with not goal or purpose.
    There is not WAY you can push a car on the street or autoX the way its pushed at a track and the same goes for the components supporting it.


    "I've seen a test showing removing oem cooler brings down oil temp."
    not that is not necessarily true. the OEM cooler is an exchanger, while the car is cold it heats up the oil, and when the oil is hot, I am sure it helps to cool it. I am not a hydraulics engineer but I am sure liquid mass / density can also plan a role in which liquid cool which one regardless of temp.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FoxSTI View Post
    Hi Bellwilliam

    intercooler is at the top of the hood (OEM top mount configuration) and I think I like it there as it doesn't cover up the radiator.

    2- I have a small shroud on either side but it can probably be better and provide a better seal? Do you have any examples (pics) you can share?
    3 - I am running the bottom cover. I have one of my brake ducts hoses disconnected (hole) into the engine bay.
    4 - I am running pre-mixed. No good?
    5- I will look into that (too bad I recently upgraded mine - again to a mishimoto which works great compared to the OEM)
    6- What is a rad. duct?
    2. Hard to find a picture for that, but don't overthink it. All OEM have gaps around radiator. Seal those up with foam. Some will use fancy stuff, I just use left over shipping foam. Have zero issue in more than 10 cars I've done. Weird thing is foam never falls off with zero gluing if you just squeeze it in. Few here will cringe at my crude method, but they do work !!! Even in endurance race cars.

    3. Having any high pressure hole (entering) into engine bay is a bad idea. Air flow from high to low pressure area. So higher the pressure in front of radiator vs back of radiator the more flow you get.

    4. Most sanction have a rule that no coolant allowed in car. Straight distilled water is better for cooling anyway. I do cheat a little and run tiny bit of coolant. Reason is that it allows me to smell of a leak.

    6. See this picture. Basically a piece of plastic bent to shape of a tunnel into radiator.
    https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...fc18337348.jpg
    Last edited by bellwilliam; 06-20-2017 at 10:35 PM.
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