View Poll Results: Big Willow is a...

Voters
79. You may not vote on this poll
  • Momentum Track

    26 32.91%
  • Horsepower Track

    37 46.84%
  • Turn 9 still scares me

    16 20.25%
+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 47

Thread: WSIR is a.....

  1. #1
    Driver upgrade 2.51 JC3D's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Venice Beach
    Posts
    1,032
    Liked
    0 times

    Default WSIR is a.....

    With the long debate, it's now time for a vote
    John
    #522 996 Spec / GTS3
    JC3D // Racecars and Keyframes // 996 Spec

  2. #2
    Master of Disaster SteveLevin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Sunnyvale, CA
    Posts
    2,172
    Liked
    546 times

    Default

    Cool. I was bored with the last poll

    Steve

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    10,979
    Liked
    1477 times

    Default

    I don't touch my brakes after the entry of Turn 5, all the way around the track until the very end of the front straight. If I had more than 110 whp, I could go much faster. I like Oli, but he's off his rocker on this one. It's a hp track if ever there was one.
    The deposed former Sheriff of trackHQ . . .

    2006 Porsche 997 Carerra Coupe 6-MT - daily driver
    1992 Honda (Acura) NSX 5-MT - classic investment I couldn't resist and occasionally drive
    2004 Honda S2000 AP2 6-MT - track day car
    2006 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution IX MR 6-MT - when I need a backseat, 4-doors, or a real trunk, and still want to haul ass . . .

  4. #4
    Professor Chaos thefrush's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Sacramento, CA
    Posts
    1,087
    Liked
    1 times

    Default

    ^^ That sounds like an argument towards it being a momentum track if you ask me...
    "The crashes people remember, but drivers remember the near misses" -Mario Andretti

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    10,979
    Liked
    1477 times

    Default

    No, it's not an argument that WSIR is a momentum track. I am flat out for more than half the track without ever touching my brakes. I only have about 110 whp, so I can only go so fast from the turn in point of Turn 5 to the entrance of Turn 9, and then on to the end of the front straight. If I had another 100 hp, I could go much faster through that entire section, and turn signficantly faster lap times.

    Oli is playing a game with you, and based on the poll results so far, he has you all drinking the kool-aid.
    Last edited by Richard EVO; 07-10-2008 at 12:18 PM.
    The deposed former Sheriff of trackHQ . . .

    2006 Porsche 997 Carerra Coupe 6-MT - daily driver
    1992 Honda (Acura) NSX 5-MT - classic investment I couldn't resist and occasionally drive
    2004 Honda S2000 AP2 6-MT - track day car
    2006 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution IX MR 6-MT - when I need a backseat, 4-doors, or a real trunk, and still want to haul ass . . .

  6. #6
    Master of Disaster SteveLevin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Sunnyvale, CA
    Posts
    2,172
    Liked
    546 times

    Default

    The thing is, pretty much any car will always be faster on a given track with more power. So I don't think that's a valid way of judging the track as "horsepower" or "momentum."

    In my mind, a "horsepower" track is one where cornering speeds are very low and thus the cornering advantages of a "momentum" car are minimized. Couple that with long straightaways, and you get a "horsepower" track.

    Turn 11 at Thunderhill is a horsepower turn because the apex speed of both a T1 Corvette and a Spec Miata are very close. Turn 8 is a momentum turn because the SM will have a significantly higher speed through there. It's an "absolute" vs. "relative" thing. Assume an SM can corner 50% faster than a T1 car. So say the T1 goes into Turn 11 at 40mph, that means the SM goes through at 60mph. The T1 car can make that up easily and then power right on up.

    But at Turn 8, say the T1 car goes through at 80mph, and the SM goes through at 120mph. That's a lot harder to make back up before you run out of time to accelerate.

    So now I've confused myself. But I think think WSIR is a momentum track

    Steve

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    10,979
    Liked
    1477 times

    Default

    I'm not drinking Oli's kool-aid and I am content to be a minority of one. It's a horsepower track. Say Oli's Corvette and my Miata exit Turn 5 side by side. Do you know how big a lead Oli has by the time he gets to the braking zone for Turn 1? It's huge. That is a very long, very fast section of track. No amount of momentum can carry a 110 whp car through there with anything near the speed that a 400+ hp Corvette can go.
    The deposed former Sheriff of trackHQ . . .

    2006 Porsche 997 Carerra Coupe 6-MT - daily driver
    1992 Honda (Acura) NSX 5-MT - classic investment I couldn't resist and occasionally drive
    2004 Honda S2000 AP2 6-MT - track day car
    2006 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution IX MR 6-MT - when I need a backseat, 4-doors, or a real trunk, and still want to haul ass . . .

  8. #8
    Chest hair required Olitho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    5,088
    Liked
    2165 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard EVO View Post
    I'm not drinking Oli's kool-aid and I am content to be a minority of one. It's a horsepower track. Say Oli's Corvette and my Miata exit Turn 5 side by side. Do you know how big a lead Oli has by the time he gets to the braking zone for Turn 1? It's huge. That is a very long, very fast section of track. No amount of momentum can carry a 110 whp car through there with anything near the speed that a 400+ hp Corvette can go.

    OK, conversely I will say that when you and I enter the brake zone of turn one at WSIR, I have very little advantage through turns 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6. It is only by about turn 7 that I can put down a lot of power, but then I have to lift for turn 8. I then have to brake for turn 9. You will keep your foot into it all the way through turn 9. Our exit speed at turn 9 is likely about the same. So that means I only have a big HP advantage from the exit of turn 6 to midway in turn 8. I again cannot lay down a big HP advantage until the exit of turn 9 and that runs out at the brake zone of turn 1.

    My point I think is better proved by cars like John Norris' 270 HP BMW or Jack Olsen's Porsche that I think is around 250 HP. Those guys can turn lap times at WSIR close to mine and/or within a few seconds of my best times. At CalSpeedway I would decimate them.

    At the last CalSpeedway race I lapped John Norris by about lap 10 and he is a great driver in a great car. My extra 150 HP at that track gives me a 10+ second lap advantage. At WSIR it amounts to about 3 seconds or thereabouts. Here are the results to prove it.
    http://www.calclub.com/html/html2/20...r_06_07_08.pdf

    Now at WSIR, Jack and I run real close times. John Norris is less than 4+ seconds back.
    http://www.calclub.com/html/html2/20...r_02_23_08.pdf

    I rest my case. Now go talk to my US Trustee and tell him my Chapter 7 filing is not abusive. If he wants to see abusive, tell him to read these relentless posts from my legal counsel admonishing me of the overlord HP ratings of my cheater T1 car and beratings on whether WSIR is a momentum track or not!

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    10,979
    Liked
    1477 times

    Default

    Obviously, I can't win. I doubt if I can keep up with you at WSIR turns 1 - 5 either. But if you really want a momentum car to run WSIR, I would gladly consider a straight accross trade.
    The deposed former Sheriff of trackHQ . . .

    2006 Porsche 997 Carerra Coupe 6-MT - daily driver
    1992 Honda (Acura) NSX 5-MT - classic investment I couldn't resist and occasionally drive
    2004 Honda S2000 AP2 6-MT - track day car
    2006 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution IX MR 6-MT - when I need a backseat, 4-doors, or a real trunk, and still want to haul ass . . .

  10. #10
    Professor Chaos thefrush's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Sacramento, CA
    Posts
    1,087
    Liked
    1 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard EVO View Post
    I'm not drinking Oli's kool-aid and I am content to be a minority of one. It's a horsepower track. Say Oli's Corvette and my Miata exit Turn 5 side by side. Do you know how big a lead Oli has by the time he gets to the braking zone for Turn 1? It's huge. That is a very long, very fast section of track. No amount of momentum can carry a 110 whp car through there with anything near the speed that a 400+ hp Corvette can go.
    Obviously you're set in your ways, but you're making poor comparisons. Obviously more horsepower will help him get away, the point everyone has been trying to make is that the horsepower won't help AS MUCH as at other tracks. All the good points have been made, so I won't belabor them, but WSIR is most definitely a momentum track.
    "The crashes people remember, but drivers remember the near misses" -Mario Andretti

  11. #11
    Form folgt funktion Brian D's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    13
    Liked
    0 times

    Default

    Richard, using your standards, can you name one track that is a momentum track? A C5 will outrun a "110 whp car" damn near anywhere.

    I think Oli makes a good case, and I can remember a conversation that Katz and I had last year along this very subject.

  12. #12
    Racepar Engineering racepar1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Simi Valley, CA
    Posts
    274
    Liked
    0 times

    Default

    A "horsepower track" is a track with tight corners and longish straights. Carrying slightly more momentum off of a slow speed corner will not have a large effect on the speed at the end of the straight and you have to brake back down for another slow speed corner. This gives the loss of momentum a lesser affect on the total lap time as you get a chance to come right back up to speed in the next corner. I consider cali speeway a "horsepower track" because it is basically a series of drag races from one slow corner to the next. Willow Springs on the other hand is a momentum track because to set a fast lap in any car you need to carry your momentum all the way from turn 5 to turn 3. If you lose that momentum at any point of that lap the lap is done. On cali speedway if you screw up in any particular turn other than the oval it does not affect your lap time nearly as much because you get a chance to come back up to speed at the next slow speed corner which isn't that far away.

  13. #13
    Master of Disaster SteveLevin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Sunnyvale, CA
    Posts
    2,172
    Liked
    546 times

    Default

    ^^^ yeah, that!

  14. #14
    My dream plate (& car) Katz's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    CA
    Posts
    16
    Liked
    0 times

    Default

    You should add "all of the above" for the poll.

    I personally think Big Willow is more of a momentum track, though having hp certainly does help (which is true for just about any track, I suppose).

    But on the other hand, I see a lot of Lotus twins running just as fast as Z06s at places like Buttonwillow, but not too many come close at WSIR. So I don't really know the answer....
    A "42 guy" in a 134hp E30 - still chasing an elusive (for me) 1:39 lap at WSIR...

  15. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    10,979
    Liked
    1477 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by racepar1 View Post
    A "horsepower track" is a track with tight corners and longish straights. Carrying slightly more momentum off of a slow speed corner will not have a large effect on the speed at the end of the straight and you have to brake back down for another slow speed corner. This gives the loss of momentum a lesser affect on the total lap time as you get a chance to come right back up to speed in the next corner. I consider cali speeway a "horsepower track" because it is basically a series of drag races from one slow corner to the next. Willow Springs on the other hand is a momentum track because to set a fast lap in any car you need to carry your momentum all the way from turn 5 to turn 3. If you lose that momentum at any point of that lap the lap is done. On cali speedway if you screw up in any particular turn other than the oval it does not affect your lap time nearly as much because you get a chance to come back up to speed at the next slow speed corner which isn't that far away.
    Excellent explanation. Oli, you should give this guy a job.
    The deposed former Sheriff of trackHQ . . .

    2006 Porsche 997 Carerra Coupe 6-MT - daily driver
    1992 Honda (Acura) NSX 5-MT - classic investment I couldn't resist and occasionally drive
    2004 Honda S2000 AP2 6-MT - track day car
    2006 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution IX MR 6-MT - when I need a backseat, 4-doors, or a real trunk, and still want to haul ass . . .

  16. #16
    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    La Verne, California, United States
    Posts
    7,645
    Liked
    2282 times

    Default

    to avoid confusion, we should just called it HP track, or none-HP track. Momentum is a bit confusing. I am a Miata driver, and every track is a HP track, that extra HP would help quite a bit. but the question here, is how much ?

    there should be an objective way of measuring it. as Oli has proposed earlier: lap time of a high HP and a low HP car.

    you should post time on WSIR vs. other tracks. don't even need to be great drivers, as long as they have done a lots of laps in both courses, and consistent drivers. our op, Manly don't count, he is a newbie at WSIR, but his lap time is incredible at SOW.

    let's start with Richard (Miata) and Oli (C5) (they are like every marriage, agruing endlessly ). what are your times on WSIR and SOW (CW or CCW) ?
    Last edited by bellwilliam; 07-11-2008 at 10:57 AM.
    Supermiata S1, SuperMiata S2, Supermiata S3
    13 Tesla, ma: no engine !!
    17 GT350 !!
    08 M3 - Carmax warranty !!
    96 NSX
    06 EVO MR
    15 Mini Cooper S

  17. #17
    Driver upgrade 2.51 JC3D's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Venice Beach
    Posts
    1,032
    Liked
    0 times

    Default

    I am somewhere in the middle of those 2 as far as cars go and I am fairly consistent, and ran both track on 2 consecutive weekends so here is my data:

    296hp
    3215 lbs w/ driver

    Streets: 1:26.1
    Big Track: 1:34.4
    John
    #522 996 Spec / GTS3
    JC3D // Racecars and Keyframes // 996 Spec

  18. #18
    Senior Member desertosprey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Oak Glen, CA
    Posts
    678
    Liked
    6 times

    Default

    I just enjoy reading the debate. IMHO, I'm not savvy enough to have an opinion of that track, so I just put that turn 9 still scares me.

    Also, I'm not up on my HP per lb rating of most cars, then you have tires, suspension, brakes, etc.

    Nah, I'll leave the debates up to you better men!

  19. #19
    Chest hair required Olitho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    5,088
    Liked
    2165 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bellwilliam View Post
    let's start with Richard (Miata) and Oli (C5) (they are like every marriage, agruing endlessly ). what are your times on WSIR and SOW (CW or CCW) ?
    I proposed to Richard last night. It was a beautiful evening with dinner. We took a stroll down by the beach and I popped the question and gave him the ring. He was pissed off though when he saw it was a Corvette ring. He said in a hurtful tone, "That will never fit on my Miata piston...." Then he said "You are just like all the other Corvette drivers... you are all thoughtless brutish pigs!" I am out buying flowers now.

  20. #20
    Driver upgrade 2.51 JC3D's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Venice Beach
    Posts
    1,032
    Liked
    0 times

    Default

    John
    #522 996 Spec / GTS3
    JC3D // Racecars and Keyframes // 996 Spec

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts