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Thread: Why do corvettes turn faster lap times than vipers?

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    Spec Backhoe Champion redtopz's Avatar
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    Default Why do corvettes turn faster lap times than vipers?

    Serious question, not trolling. I've never driven a viper but from what I can see they should be equal to corvettes on a race track with similar suspension, wheels/tires, chassis, weight, power, etc. However, I have yet to see one run with our corvettes unless they have significantly more power. And even with 50-100 more hp the vipers still turn slower laps especially at more technical tracks. Billy Johnson or others who have driven both, assuming equal drivers in either car why would the corvette be the faster car while slower on the straights? I can only assume the corvette is easier to control at the limit? The corvettes are also hit much harder in the SCCA CRB than vipers in T1 and GT2 resulting in a significant power to weight disadvantage. On a side note, the porsche cup cars seem to be very fast both on the straights and in the technical areas.

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    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redtopz View Post
    Serious question, not trolling. I've never driven a viper but from what I can see they should be equal to corvettes on a race track with similar suspension, wheels/tires, chassis, weight, power, etc. However, I have yet to see one run with our corvettes unless they have significantly more power. And even with 50-100 more hp the vipers still turn slower laps especially at more technical tracks. Billy Johnson or others who have driven both, assuming equal drivers in either car why would the corvette be the faster car while slower on the straights? I can only assume the corvette is easier to control at the limit? The corvettes are also hit much harder in the SCCA CRB than vipers in T1 and GT2 resulting in a significant power to weight disadvantage. On a side note, the porsche cup cars seem to be very fast both on the straights and in the technical areas.
    More money to play means a smaller driver talent pool to draw from.

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    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
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    If you want to equalize cars, here's the big stuff to look at, assuming shocks and springs are open.

    weight
    tire width
    hp across power band
    aero downforce
    aero drag
    alignment
    suspension geometry
    weight distribution (FR, MR)

    Is there a notable difference in one or more of those categories between corvette and viper?

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    Master of Disaster SteveLevin's Avatar
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    Simple. Corvette drivers can't see past their chest hair, so even if they could get their giant melon of manhood off the throttle they wouldn't know when to lift anyway.

    Steve
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    Spec Backhoe Champion redtopz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robburgoon View Post
    If you want to equalize cars, here's the big stuff to look at, assuming shocks and springs are open.

    weight
    tire width
    hp across power band
    aero downforce
    aero drag
    alignment
    suspension geometry
    weight distribution (FR, MR)

    Is there a notable difference in one or more of those categories between corvette and viper?
    Yes, that's my question. Why do corvettes across the nation seem to turn faster laps than vipers pound for pound at similar power levels? Better weight distribution? I think the vipers might have better aero downforce. Why does scca have to give the vipers more power than corvettes to try to equalize them? Maybe they just don't handle as well as a corvette?

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    Spec Backhoe Champion redtopz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robburgoon View Post
    More money to play means a smaller driver talent pool to draw from.
    Not wanting to have driver skill as part of this discussion, only car vs car. But yes, I was just telling my son about this facet of racing yesterday at dinner.

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    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redtopz View Post
    Not wanting to have driver skill as part of this discussion, only car vs car. But yes, I was just telling my son about this facet of racing yesterday at dinner.
    Could also be that the "smart" car to build for someone who knows what a budget is, is the corvette. If you only have dumb folks that don't know the value of a dollar building the viper, they might be a further minority beyond just having the means, since the smart folks that can afford a viper still choose to build the corvette since it does the same for half the money or something.

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    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redtopz View Post
    Yes, that's my question. Why do corvettes across the nation seem to turn faster laps than vipers pound for pound at similar power levels? Better weight distribution? I think the vipers might have better aero downforce. Why does scca have to give the vipers more power than corvettes to try to equalize them? Maybe they just don't handle as well as a corvette?
    You tell me, what are the weights and plates that prompted this question?

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    Spec Backhoe Champion redtopz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robburgoon View Post
    You tell me, what are the weights and plates that prompted this question?
    Waiting for someone who knows vipers to comment. All I know is they are fast as hell on the straights. Plates mean nothing to me with vipers because I know nothing about them. What prompted this question is the fact that I don't see vipers winning anything in Nasa at equal power to weight ratios and that scca keeps giving them more power and taking away from the corvettes. So I'm wondering why they are inferior cars.

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    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    Vette has lot more development than a Viper
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    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redtopz View Post
    Waiting for someone who knows vipers to comment. All I know is they are fast as hell on the straights. Plates mean nothing to me with vipers because I know nothing about them. What prompted this question is the fact that I don't see vipers winning anything in Nasa at equal power to weight ratios and that scca keeps giving them more power and taking away from the corvettes. So I'm wondering why they are inferior cars.
    I think Billy is our only hope on this one.

    What year viper are you seeing this with? Some of the early ones are kinda turds according to Billy's articles.

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    Take a look at the production numbers, and the price of Vettes/Z06s vs Vipers. Larger aftermarket support for Vettes, cheaper, easier to find replacement and performance parts and there are more tried and true setups to replicate.

    The Viper has a horrible 3.07 final drive ratio which hurts acceleration. 3.31 & 3.55s make a big difference and so does swapping 5&6th gear to the 2013 ratios.

    It's cheaper to go fast in a Vette, not many people pay the premium to make Vipers fast, so they are advantaged in the rules, but I'm sure once a few guys build Vipers (now that they're relatively cheaper on the used market), the sanctioning bodies will slow them down after a few start dominating.

    Toe to toe and apples : apples, ID image a Viper would be faster.

    Gen 4 ACRs are stupid fast, I'm not sure the rules but they should be competitive.
    Last edited by Stuntman; 05-07-2016 at 11:57 PM.
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    I agree with the others here that its development that makes the difference. The 911 benefits from the greatest development of any production sports car despite a fundamentally obsolete drivetrain layout. The 1st and 2nd gen Miatas, while having a great platform to start with, contuinually beat cars with far better power to weight or contact patch to weight ratios. This again because of the depth of development by small race teams and the aftermarket compared to other platforms.
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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qWYJQClIyY

    Tire rack "show"...2015 Z06 Vs. 2016 Viper ACR (Laguna Seca)

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    Spec Backhoe Champion redtopz's Avatar
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    OK thanks guys, that makes sense. So according to Billy who knows vipers, and according to my basic understanding of the cars, a viper (if developed to the same level as a vette) should be at least as fast at the same power to weight ratio. I definitely agree that corvettes (like miatas) have a ton of development for track performance and the knowledge and parts are readily available for everyone. It's easy and relatively cheap to build a very fast corvette (remove weight, adjustable shocks, springs/sways, bolt on aero, dry sump, big brakes, wheels, tires). So I guess the bottom line is that the corvette is somewhat penalized because people are setting them up to be faster than other cars and the number of people with fast corvettes is greater than the number of people with fast vipers and corvettes have won more races. So basically, scca is applying handicaps like in golf based on racing performance and not on actual car performance potential. I guess that's how it works in pro racing also, but the development and talent is more evenly spread among various cars.
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    Spec Backhoe Champion redtopz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben22 View Post
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qWYJQClIyY

    Tire rack "show"...2015 Z06 Vs. 2016 Viper ACR (Laguna Seca)
    I'm not talking about street cars, but yeah that new ACR is crazy fast. It has way more aero on it than we are even allowed to run in a full GT2 race car.

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    I sold my ZR1 and picked up a viper TA. I have to say the vette was a bit easier to drive at the limit. That and a much better TC system made it easier to get a lap time out of. These were my street cars with the occasional track use so I was looking for fun factor over lap time. My mx-5 is cheaper and faster when I look for lap times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuntman View Post
    Take a look at the production numbers, and the price of Vettes/Z06s vs Vipers. Larger aftermarket support for Vettes, cheaper, easier to find replacement and performance parts and there are more tried and true setups to replicate.

    The Viper has a horrible 3.07 final drive ratio which hurts acceleration. 3.31 & 3.55s make a big difference and so does swapping 5&6th gear to the 2013 ratios.

    It's cheaper to go fast in a Vette, not many people pay the premium to make Vipers fast, so they are advantaged in the rules, but I'm sure once a few guys build Vipers (now that they're relatively cheaper on the used market), the sanctioning bodies will slow them down after a few start dominating.

    Toe to toe and apples : apples, ID image a Viper would be faster.

    Gen 4 ACRs are stupid fast, I'm not sure the rules but they should be competitive.
    aren't you racing at SPA ? you texting this while racing down front straight ?
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    "Balance Of Performance" often balances out and handicaps better cars, teams, drivers - even at pro levels.

    I'm not sure what the lift and drag ratios are between Vettes and Vipers are, but the Viper has a more favorable rearward weight bias (48/52).


    The Miata doesn't have much geometry "development" but rather a huge sample size where a lot is already tried and true, same for the vette. What makes the miata, s2000, vette and yes Viper punch above their weight level is their inherent design, geometry, and layout being "proper" for a front engine layout. All 4 cars have the majority to the entire engine behind the front wheel centerline.

    Stock, the Gen 2 Viper drives a lot like a big miata or s2000 -moreso than a Vette does IMO.

    What year Vettes and Vipers are you comparing?

    I was in Spa. Home now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by redtopz View Post
    Serious question, not trolling. I've never driven a viper but from what I can see they should be equal to corvettes on a race track with similar suspension, wheels/tires, chassis, weight, power, etc. However, I have yet to see one run with our corvettes unless they have significantly more power. And even with 50-100 more hp the vipers still turn slower laps especially at more technical tracks. Billy Johnson or others who have driven both, assuming equal drivers in either car why would the corvette be the faster car while slower on the straights? I can only assume the corvette is easier to control at the limit? The corvettes are also hit much harder in the SCCA CRB than vipers in T1 and GT2 resulting in a significant power to weight disadvantage. On a side note, the porsche cup cars seem to be very fast both on the straights and in the technical areas.
    What do you base that on? In almost every conceivable combination in the two classes the Viper weighs more and has a smaller restrictor than the Corvette. It is impossible to answer you question accurately, because in every case where these cars are raced head to head (not "winning" the track day) they are not done so in factory trim, there are always performance adjustments.

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