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Thread: whose fault is it ? or racing incident ?

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    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    Default whose fault is it ? or racing incident ?

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    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif emilio700's Avatar
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    Definitely the yellow #8. Attempting a pass, lost it and hit the car that was being passed. That the driver was two in the dirt would have made it a borderline illegal pass anyway. #74 left #8 room.
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    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
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    White RX-7 shares a sizable portion of fault for avoidable contact. That wasn't a pass, that was evasive action for a missed shift by the white car.
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    Spec Backhoe Champion redtopz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robburgoon View Post
    White RX-7 shares a sizable portion of fault for avoidable contact. That wasn't a pass, that was evasive action for a missed shift by the white car.
    This is how I see it also. White car either missed a shift or had a really bad start. Camera car made evasive action around white RX7 and yellow #8 followed him. By the time he was side by side with white car he had nowhere to go. White car should have moved right leaving 3/4 car width racing room per nasa rules (this was nasa right?), not left.
    So IMO, either racing incident or white car at fault.

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    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    Per FB. They said it is SCCA

    So why did the yellow car follow the white car all the way to their right if it was white car's fault ? Is it because wheels "locked" (front of white car's wheel touching rear of yellow car's wheel) so yellow car couldn't steer back ?

    Btw. I don't know that why I am asking.

    White car left yellow car 1 car width in the beginning, the. He closed it to 3/4 width just before contact.
    Last edited by bellwilliam; 03-14-2016 at 07:34 PM.
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    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif emilio700's Avatar
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    In car for 74 and 8?
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    But obviously I just dont get it. -fatbillybob

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    Painful result for some minor triggers. Both might share fault, but need more video perspectives - especially the yellow car.

    White missed shift, causing Yellow to evade. White later gave a questionable amount of racing room in these circumstances.

    Yellow was unable to rejoin the racing surface safely at that speed and under throttle. May not have been very settled. In hindsight Yellow car may have avoided contact and the chain reaction by reducing speed. In defense of the Yellow car, the leading camera car was two off two too and kicking up dirt. I'm sure it looked chaotic. I'm not inclined to fault someone looking for an escape route when dealt some bad cards.

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    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
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    Writing this down...

    If someone is alongside in the dirt and you're not passing them, run them completely off.

    Got it.

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    Spec Backhoe Champion redtopz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bellwilliam View Post
    Per FB. They said it is SCCA

    So why did the yellow car follow the white car all the way to their right if it was white car's fault ? Is it because wheels "locked" (front of white car's wheel touching rear of yellow car's wheel) so yellow car couldn't steer back ?

    Btw. I don't know that why I am asking.

    White car left yellow car 1 car width in the beginning, the. He closed it to 3/4 width just before contact.
    Ah yes, I see the scca decals now. Watched it on a mobile device before. Looks like their front wheels locked together which makes it super hard if not impossible to keep control of your trajectory.

    My hunch is that seeing it from the perspective of the yellow car and the white car will show little blame to either driver. It will show the yellow car closing in quickly on the white car at the start who missed
    a shift, then veering left following the camera car, going 2 off to avoid contact with white car and then suddenly locking wheels and losing control. From the white car perspective, I imagine it will show him
    missing a shift and then regaining speed as one car goes around him to the left and another is side by side on his left. It may or may not show him veering left before locking wheels with the yellow car
    and then losing control. Since locking front wheels caused the wreck it might look from either perspective like it was the other guy's fault.
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    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    someone explain the physic of "locking wheels" to me.... never really thought about it.....seen it all the time though...

    do both lose control of trajectory ?
    what are you supposed to do ?
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    Administrator ucfbrett's Avatar
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    It looks like No. 74 tried not to let the 8 car back on track after missing a shift. There was no one to his right. No reason not to leave the 8 car room to re-enter.

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    Spec Backhoe Champion redtopz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bellwilliam View Post
    someone explain the physic of "locking wheels" to me.... never really thought about it.....seen it all the time though...

    do both lose control of trajectory ?
    what are you supposed to do ?
    Imagine trying to turn your steering wheel with the outside of your right front tire up against a brick wall, except you are going 100 mph and the wall is moving also. It's probably not real common for the wheels to be perfectly side by side though. Usually one will be slightly in front of the other. I've never thought about what to do, although keeping the steering wheel straight and lightly braking might be a good idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by ucfbrett View Post
    It looks like No. 74 tried not to let the 8 car back on track after missing a shift. There was no one to his right. No reason not to leave the 8 car room to re-enter.
    I agree with that.
    Last edited by redtopz; 03-14-2016 at 09:01 PM.

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    I wanna go fast! thepass's Avatar
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    White car definitely drifted left into the yellow car whether by intent or accident. There was nobody on his right and no evident reason for the squeeze. Perhaps the yellow car shouldn't have been there, but his position looks like it was as much a result of good evasion of an accident as anything, and he was making the most of the room the white car was giving him up until the white car moved into him. They were door-to-door so I don't see much of a case for the white car saying he didn't know the other guy was to his left at that point.
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    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ucfbrett View Post
    It looks like No. 74 tried not to let the 8 car back on track after missing a shift. There was no one to his right. No reason not to leave the 8 car room to re-enter.
    Generally speaking, anytime I see evidence of a driver throwing a tantrum over being passed, I start to lose interest in their point of view. Doubly so if they already ****ed up.

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    Re: Wheels locked

    Both cars minimally respond to steering inputs.

    If the wheels are side-by-side you risk a broken tie rod, broken wheels, or worse (spins + crunch).

    However, the wheels don't necessarily need to be side-by-side for this to occur. This might be the more common scenario. It can happen at just about any point of the cars length. There doesn't need to be a lot of rubbing either (in fact it might not leave a scratch). Both cars will naturally want to converge into each other and resist steering. This can happen on a straight or in a corner whenever two cars touch. At greater offsets between cars (i.e. contact on the rear-front quarters) the pinning effect is similar to a pit maneuver without the pit (hopefully). It really doesn't take much, minimal contact (because harder impacts tend to push cars away before it can occur).

    While there might be minimal steering control, but you still have full control of throttle and brake to help untangle it. If it ever happens going into a corner, the outside car can brake more and it becomes a good over/under op on the inside car. If the outside car waits both cars might go straight off track. In corners the inside car will have fewer options than the outside once locked (i.e. let the inside car go wide and blow the corner). If you're inside keep braking.

    Closed wheel cars it can be bad. However, it gets so much worse with open wheel cars and karts.

    I'm far from an expert but I have experienced it in a car and kart.

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    Chest hair required Olitho's Avatar
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    If you want to see another good perspective of how quick bumping tires can cause a spin then check out my video from SCCA's June Sprints in 2010 at Road America. The fields there are huge on this 4.1 mile course, about 70-80 cars.

    In the video you will see me get pushed off track at Turn Five onto the horribly bumpy and gnarly rumble strips around this track at minute 1:20. That causes me to spin and I am lucky I get across track without getting hit. As I am working my way back through a super congested track I am trying to pass the #66 Turner Motorsports BMW. I don't think this driver was aware of what was going on as he pinched me off from a pass under the Briggs and Stratton sign. I should have been more wary from the first attempt as I moved to pass him on the right exiting Turn Three. I was almost clear of him when he bumped me. Go to minute 4:00. I was really lucky again to collect the car before hitting the wall. I was so close I had pieces of the yellow Sargento banners from the cement wall on my body work, but only minor damage other than the flat. As I was spinning I almost went mid track again as I moved left to avoid the Sargento Bridge support. I drove 5000 miles to be out of the race on lap 2.

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    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    U r so lucky on the 2nd spin !!
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    Senior Member albertg's Avatar
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    Wow that was scary Oli.
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    White car pinched yellow car. White car had no one coming up inside up so there was no reason to pinch the yellow car. The position was lost due to his bad start anyway. Red mist racing.

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