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Thread: Trail braking

  1. #21
    Senior Member shinkuu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robburgoon View Post
    One of the guys at the local kart track swears that "trailbraking" is when you "push on the brake and gas at the same time".

    Is he out of his F*ing mind, or is this an accepted term in karting circles?
    sounds like left foot braking to me.
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  2. #22
    Professor Chaos thefrush's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shinkuu View Post
    sounds like left foot braking to me.
    There's no other way to brake a go-kart.
    "The crashes people remember, but drivers remember the near misses" -Mario Andretti

  3. #23
    Smack-Talkin' Member J. Tyler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MontinolaRacing View Post
    But the technique of trailbraking is intended for use into a corner.
    Of course. Nothing I said conflicts with that.

    The proper brake release always includes "trailing off" the brake pressure after your hard, initial brake pressure. But I wouldn't call that trailbraking. That's just how you need to release the brake no matter what.
    No, that's not necessarily true. There are times where you might use constant brake pressure while turning. Look at data from a NASCAR Cup car, lots of those guys do that: Trail down to ~50% on entry, then hold a constant ~50% while turning (their 'corner entry' phase is really long), then trail the rest down to zero somewhere in the middle of the corner. There are definitely fewer places where you do that on road courses, but it does happen. - The entry to the Sweeper at Buttonwillow is one place where some cars like that style.



    This discussion is mainly semantics... I get what you are saying, you get what I am saying. But, to me, trail braking refers to one trailing off the brakes during corner entry. I try to be clear about stuff like this when instructing so that the instructee does not get confused when I am differentiating between the two styles. I don't know what to call the other technique I described, but I would not call that whole process "trail braking" because a big part of it is done at almost constant brake pressure.


    $.02

  4. #24
    Racepar Engineering racepar1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. Tyler View Post
    No, that's not necessarily true. There are times where you might use constant brake pressure while turning. Look at data from a NASCAR Cup car, lots of those guys do that: Trail down to ~50% on entry, then hold a constant ~50% while turning (their 'corner entry' phase is really long), then trail the rest down to zero somewhere in the middle of the corner. There are definitely fewer places where you do that on road courses, but it does happen. - The entry to the Sweeper at Buttonwillow is one place where some cars like that style.
    They are doing that to control the weight transfer and prevent understeer untill they are able to pick-up the throttle significantly. I wouldn't consider that "trail braking" necessarily as they are almost certainly somewhat on the gas while that is going on. Trail braking in it's correct useage is just as me and minolta are describing. Of course you trail off the brakes as well as trail your braking into the corner. If you let off the brakes suddenly it would cause drastic momentary weight transfer to the rear and upset the car, most likely resulting in massive understeer. I am no instructor, but I have been around racing my whole life and my definition is the only one I have ever heard of up untill now. No circle track racer trick will convince me that my definition is wrong.

  5. #25
    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard EVO View Post
    He must be right. He works at a karting shop, so he knows everything.
    I didn't believe him for a minute, I was fighting tooth and nail NOT to just call him a dumbass.

    I figured it was at least worth a sanity check

    Thanks guys! All is right with the world.

  6. #26
    "Shoe"
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  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by MontinolaRacing View Post
    But the technique of trailbraking is intended for use into a corner. Therefore you are turning while releasing the brake. The proper brake release always includes "trailing off" the brake pressure after your hard, initial brake pressure. But I wouldn't call that trailbraking. That's just how you need to release the brake no matter what.
    +1


    Quote Originally Posted by J. Tyler View Post
    Of course. Nothing I said conflicts with that.
    No, that's not necessarily true. There are times where you might use constant brake pressure while turning. Look at data from a NASCAR Cup car, lots of those guys do that: Trail down to ~50% on entry, then hold a constant ~50% while turning (their 'corner entry' phase is really long), then trail the rest down to zero somewhere in the middle of the corner. There are definitely fewer places where you do that on road courses, but it does happen. - The entry to the Sweeper at Buttonwillow is one place where some cars like that style.
    This discussion is mainly semantics... I get what you are saying, you get what I am saying. But, to me, trail braking refers to one trailing off the brakes during corner entry. I try to be clear about stuff like this when instructing so that the instructee does not get confused when I am differentiating between the two styles. I don't know what to call the other technique I described, but I would not call that whole process "trail braking" because a big part of it is done at almost constant brake pressure.
    $.02
    -1


    i do exactly what MontinolaRacing described into Sweeper or any corners i do trail braking, eventually almost any corner entry is some what mixed with braking and turning, just how deep the braking mixed with the steering

    just a quick question tho, what if a guy brake into a corner and he didn't release the brake gradually, that's not a trail braking?

    i always thought trail means something is trailed into something

    so my dictionary tells me the braking is trailed into corners, thus it's called trail braking

    excues my bad English if it's wrong

    oh btw, this is just my 0.00002

  8. #28
    "Shoe"
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    Wow, so much has been taken out of context, twisted, nit-picked, it's sad.


    I'm pretty sure J. Tyler meant that (and was too lazy to explain everything):

    Threshold braking - 100% braking, maximizing the grip of the tires exclusively for braking. This threshold braking starts with a lot of initial brake pressure (instantly to a 10-pedal, depending on the car, maybe a squeeze for the heavy sedan to take a set vs. a car with aero where you can litteraly grab the steering wheel and pull yourself into the brake pedal -Formula Car) and gradually reduce pressure to stay out of the abs/avoid lockup (the slower your speed, the less pressure it takes to lock a tire. Its easier to lock a tire at 50mph than 150).

    "Traditional" corner - straight-line threshold braking, finish all braking in a straight line, release off the brakes, then initiate turn-in and ride a constant radius through the corner.

    Trailbraking
    - by extending your braking zone into the corner, you can brake later = full throttle on the straight longer, and more entry speed to attain the same apex speed = faster.

    Trailbraking better maximizes the friction circle, keeping the tires at 100% level of grip the entire time. (compared to 'traditional' corner-entry where you have an inefficient gap between 100% brake and the transition from 0% braking to 100% cornering.

    Trailbraking - You start by threshold braking, but you are able to brake later than a traditional corner-entry. In order to get down to the apex, you must gradually add some steering input slightly earlier in the corner. While adding this steering input, you must relieve some additional brake pressure because a tire can only do 100% of work. If you are threshold braking at 100%, adding any cornering load would be > 100% and overwork the tire which reduces grip. So as you ad 2,5,10% of steering input, you reduce the brake demand on the tire to 98,95,90% etc...

    You want to balance the car at 100% on the friction circle the entire time until you work your way to 50% cornering, 50% braking and eventually (by the time you get to the apex) you are 0% braking, and 100% of the tire's grip is in cornering load.


    SO, you do 'trail-off' the brakes when threshold braking. I personally would rather call that brake modulation than trailing off the brakes. J. Tyler did not refer to straight-line braking for 'trail-braking' in his posts (although the way it was written, you could interpret it that way).

    You could also under-drive the car and corner at 60% and add 30% of braking down to the apex and this would mean you are braking and turning at the same time, yet inefficiently leaving 10% of the tire's grip on the table.

    What J. Tyler (and myself) refer to trailbraking is the act after straight-line threshold braking and the transition of adding steering input while releasing additional brake pressure (beyond 'modulation' to avoid lockup/abs) to free up grip in the tire for cornering load. This 'balance' of brake release and steering input is what we refer to as 'trailbraking'.




    This post was beyond necessary...

  9. #29
    Smack-Talkin' Member J. Tyler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuntman View Post
    Wow, so much has been taken out of context, twisted, nit-picked, it's sad.
    +1

  10. #30
    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
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    TrackHQ, "we'll argue over anything"!


  11. #31
    "Shoe"
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    Quote Originally Posted by robburgoon View Post
    TrackHQ, "we'll argue over anything"! Brought to you by Jaku

    That should be the new slogan! Manly, can you add that?

  12. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuntman View Post
    TrackHQ, "we'll argue over anything"! Brought to you by Jaku

    you need to pay money to use my name

  13. #33

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