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Thread: Speedventures COTA event, new $350 insurance

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    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    Default Speedventures COTA event, new $350 insurance

    got this email from Aaron. this event is gonna be pricey (over $2k in registration alone, 3 day weekend + this new insurance charge)......... anyway for us to buy our own property damage insurance for less ?

    Dear Drivers,
    Thank you for expressing interest in our COTA event in April of 2015. We have some important questions and bits of information for you. We would greatly appreciate a reply to these at your earliest convenience:
    1. Due to the potentially high cost of repairing damage to walls at COTA (they have state of the art crash protection installed, which is great for our safety!, but expensive) we are planning on instituting a mandatory $350/driver damage deposit and insurance fee (fully refunded if it's not used). Unlike other tracks where facilities repair bills can reach up to $1500 typically, COTA bills could potentially reach $15,000 or more. Here's how this deposit program would work:
    - All drivers pay $350 facilities damage deposit.
    - If a driver crashes and causes damage to the safety walls he/she pays a "deductible" of $1500-$3000 (TBD). Any expenses over that amount are paid for out of the pool of funds into which all the drivers have paid.
    - At the end of the event, any/all unused funds are distributed back to all drivers equally (except any drivers who caused damage at the expense of the pooled money).
    - Speed Ventures would provide an accounting of these funds and any expenses to all drivers before and after the event.

    PLEASE REPLY RE. WHETHER THIS APPROACH TO DEALING WITH FACILITIES DAMAGE IS ACCEPTABLE OR UNACCEPTABLE TO YOU.

    2. We are possibly going to add Friday to the event to make it a 3-day event. A great number of people feel that after the travel and transport costs it would be best to participate 3 days. We have also heard from people who have run at COTA already that the learning curve for that track is such that 1 day is spent just learning the track! If you are signed up for 2 days, PLEASE LET ME KNOW if you would like to run 3 days if it ends up happening.

    3. We are actively working on transport options and will notify all drivers of the options available within a few weeks. At present we have located open transport for $1200/rt.

    Let me know if you have further questions. We are very excited for this event!
    Thanks,

    Aaron Bitterman
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    Not Certified Slow SDSUsnowboards's Avatar
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    So, everyone loses their "deposit" if one knucklehead damages a state-of-the-art wall and can't/refuses to pay, or the damages exceed $3,000, which aaron admits damges are likely to exceed?

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    Senior Member fatbillybob's Avatar
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    Very interesting topic. What is the answer? My first reaction is DON'T pay. Once we allow one group to do this then all will follow and we have increased the cost of us driving. Vote with your wallet. I would not go to CoTA. Remember what happen when consumers allowed the first airline to charge for bags.

    The real question is how is this handled with other groups? I think with SCCA we are insured. If there is track damage the SCCA insurance pays for it. That insurance is part of our registration fees including participant liability insurance. That is the best reason to race with SCCA. You can't buy any individual insurance that covers your on track liability.

    Racing costs more than HPDE like Speed ventures and you get less tracktime racing. An HPDE weekend costs 150-200/day. A race weekend is about $550 but less tracktime. Even with that we raced CoTA in 2013 with SCCA and paid about 30% more than a normal race weekend. We paid about $650 for CoTA. SpeedVentures is $600/day plus kick in $350 for an SV self-insurance scheme? With other groups it is rare that there is an issue where drivers are asked to pay for damage. In fact I can't remember any ever or any drivers squawking about it. I do remember drivers having to pay for kittly litter if they oil the track. But is that because there is really just to deter poor maintenance and deter bad track manners? What is protocol? I don't remember seeing on the waiver that if I wreck a wall at WSIR I have to pay for it. I also have never read how they would get that money from me either. I never heard of this being a problem at any tracks. WSIR for example are very money grubbing. If this was an issue you can bet they would not let us on track without money in their pocket. Why is CoTA different? Why do all drivers have to share in one driver's loss at CoTA with speed ventures? What is in it for SpeedVentures to try and pull off some kind of self-insurance at our cost? Does SV get a cheaper track rental rate if they provide a bond or insurance to pay for SV driver track damage?

    This notion of driver damage insurance is a bad precedent for drivers. I would not participate in that game.
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    Chest hair required Olitho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatbillybob View Post
    The real question is how is this handled with other groups? I think with SCCA we are insured. If there is track damage the SCCA insurance pays for it. That insurance is part of our registration fees including participant liability insurance. That is the best reason to race with SCCA. You can't buy any individual insurance that covers your on track liability.

    Racing costs more than HPDE like Speed ventures and you get less tracktime racing. An HPDE weekend costs 150-200/day. A race weekend is about $550 but less tracktime. Even with that we raced CoTA in 2013 with SCCA and paid about 30% more than a normal race weekend. We paid about $650 for CoTA. SpeedVentures is $600/day plus kick in $350 for an SV self-insurance scheme?
    The economic model is different for SCCA at COTA. With SCCA I think the paying race car count was areound 450 entries. Races will pack many more cars on track than the one car per 1/10 mile metric usd for most HPDES. COTA will put maybe 30-40 cars on track with SV. For the SCCA races that density can be twice that.
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    Senior Member fatbillybob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olitho View Post
    The economic model is different for SCCA at COTA. With SCCA I think the paying race car count was areound 450 entries. Races will pack many more cars on track than the one car per 1/10 mile metric usd for most HPDES. COTA will put maybe 30-40 cars on track with SV. For the SCCA races that density can be twice that.
    That may be true? I only see this from an end user perspective... car counts are car counts. Racing less tracktime. HPDE more tracktime.

    Track fees racing per weekend = $550 ave.
    track fees HPDE = 300-$400
    track fees SV CoTA = $1190 + $350 insurance?

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    Old timer craZee's Avatar
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    I am not willing to pay for insurance for others, that's crazy!

    If I am told that I am responsible for fixing any damages I do to the track, an option to buy insurance might be appropriate, but how can we all be held responsible for each others actions?

    My friend goes to the Ring each year, and he has the option of choosing his deductible for the insurance on the car he rents. He screwed up last year, and after buying a high deductible he totaled the car. His bad, nobody to blame.

    I have been holding off signing up for this event, afraid that there were going to be more "hidden costs" like this. It's just about to become too pricey for me as bad as I want to do it.

    IMHO, registration should not have been opened until all the financial details were in concrete.

    craZee
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    Senior Member CharleyH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatbillybob View Post
    Very interesting topic. What is the answer? My first reaction is DON'T pay. Once we allow one group to do this then all will follow and we have increased the cost of us driving. Vote with your wallet. I would not go to CoTA. Remember what happen when consumers allowed the first airline to charge for bags.

    The real question is how is this handled with other groups? I think with SCCA we are insured. If there is track damage the SCCA insurance pays for it. That insurance is part of our registration fees including participant liability insurance. That is the best reason to race with SCCA. You can't buy any individual insurance that covers your on track liability.

    Racing costs more than HPDE like Speed ventures and you get less tracktime racing. An HPDE weekend costs 150-200/day. A race weekend is about $550 but less tracktime. Even with that we raced CoTA in 2013 with SCCA and paid about 30% more than a normal race weekend. We paid about $650 for CoTA. SpeedVentures is $600/day plus kick in $350 for an SV self-insurance scheme? With other groups it is rare that there is an issue where drivers are asked to pay for damage. In fact I can't remember any ever or any drivers squawking about it. I do remember drivers having to pay for kittly litter if they oil the track. But is that because there is really just to deter poor maintenance and deter bad track manners? What is protocol? I don't remember seeing on the waiver that if I wreck a wall at WSIR I have to pay for it. I also have never read how they would get that money from me either. I never heard of this being a problem at any tracks. WSIR for example are very money grubbing. If this was an issue you can bet they would not let us on track without money in their pocket. Why is CoTA different? Why do all drivers have to share in one driver's loss at CoTA with speed ventures? What is in it for SpeedVentures to try and pull off some kind of self-insurance at our cost? Does SV get a cheaper track rental rate if they provide a bond or insurance to pay for SV driver track damage?

    This notion of driver damage insurance is a bad precedent for drivers. I would not participate in that game.
    Carl, I can tell you from first hand experience that when you hit the wall at Daytona there are two people waiting for you back at the pit.... The first thing they ask you is "are you alright".... The next thing they say is "you know you have to pay for that damage to the wall". ... The third thing they say is "please sign here". In my case I was fortunate enough (if you can call it that) that I actually hit a small stretch of K wall, so they just had to slide it back in place and didn't charge me.

    That is the only wall I have ever hit... And I hope it is the last one!

    With that said, I don't like this self insurance plan, I don't want to pay for someone else's error.


    Charley
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    Senior Member granth's Avatar
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    Here is the Chin motorsports page for COTA JAN 2015, I did not see a this fee or did I miss it? hmm sounds like SV is getting the shaft or some other funny stuff going on here?

    https://www.chinmotorsports.com/Even...5KrEmHcgusQ%3d

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    Master of Disaster SteveLevin's Avatar
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    There are at least a few other tracks known for expensive bills if you cause damage... Barber and Watkins Glen come to mind -- Barber especially, since they charge for grass repair!

    Me, I wouldn't drive at a track where I could be liable for costs I can't control. My car, okay, I control fixing that. Me, I have health insurance for that. But going off, hitting a fence, say, and paying an "uncontrollable rate" where they tell me what it's going to cost and that's it... I can't play in that arena.

    Now, if I viewed this COTA deal just as insurance against any and all track charges (you buy the policy for $350 with a $3,000 deductible), I could see being okay with that. I would certainly want to see the fine print that makes sure I am 100% covered and indemnified so that my max out of pocket is $3,350. I think SV is confusing people with trying to return money (which I understand the spirit of, but then maybe the policy "charge" is too high?).

    I'm not saying I'd take on the $3,350 cost to drive COTA (to me, while interesting, it's still "just another track").. but I could understand it for those that really hanker. I'm too cheap

    Steve
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    Track Whore Pure EvoIX's Avatar
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    i'll pass. too rich for my blood. you boys have fun.
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    The Real Captain Slow Red_5's Avatar
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    I guess I'll never drive at COTA, just plain too expensive for my budget. I hope you have fun.
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    Faster than Oli jimt's Avatar
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    Is this track worth the Fun/$?

    For $3k+, you can do a full comp school with car included at many other tracks, Laguna, Road Atlanta, Miller
    You can run 6 days at Buttonwillow
    You can run 4 days at Laguna
    You can buy a Miata
    You can steal a S2K from a grandma in Pasadena
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    $3000 buys you 3 seasons of Time Attack.
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    BMW Master bawareca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pure EvoIX View Post
    $3000 buys you 3 seasons of Time Attack.
    With or without the spare engines included

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    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pure EvoIX View Post
    $3000 buys you 3 seasons of Time Attack.
    Which is about 30 hot laps total in your case ?
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    For $3000 . . . You can steal a S2K from a grandma in Pasadena


    (Actually, I think it was $9,000-)

    I once spent $8,000- for a deluxe racing weekend including Friday open test at Sonoma, in my Formula Mazda, with trackside support, transportation so my son and I could fly in, 2 nice hotel rooms, expensive dinners, tires, entry fee, yada, yada. I don't view the cost of the CoTA weekend as excessive. It's a great track, and a rare opportunity. After all, you only pay the $3,000- deductible if you crash into a state of the art barrier after you slide across a lot of run-off. Don't do that . . .

    Some of you guys spent a bundle to go to Spa Francorchamps and the Nurburgring last year.
    Last edited by Richard EVO; 12-25-2014 at 12:30 PM.
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    Senior Member fatbillybob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard EVO View Post

    I once spent $8,000- for a deluxe racing

    Some of you guys spent a bundle to go to Spa Francorchamps and the Nurburgring last year.
    Agreed but paying for a new questionable insurance is not "value added." And CoTA is not Spa or the Nurburgring.

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    I wanna go fast! thepass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatbillybob View Post
    ... And CoTA is not Spa or the Nurburgring.
    Have to agree. There are tracks you've dreamed of driving your whole life and the thought of actually getting to do it makes your fingertips tingle and you're willing to swipe every card you have and sign on any dotted line. CoTA is a very cool track, but it's not that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard EVO View Post


    (Actually, I think it was $9,000-)

    I once spent $8,000- for a deluxe racing weekend including Friday open test at Sonoma, in my Formula Mazda, with trackside support, transportation so my son and I could fly in, 2 nice hotel rooms, expensive dinners, tires, entry fee, yada, yada. I don't view the cost of the CoTA weekend as excessive. It's a great track, and a rare opportunity. After all, you only pay the $3,000- deductible if you crash into a state of the art barrier after you slide across a lot of run-off. Don't do that . . .

    Some of you guys spent a bundle to go to Spa Francorchamps and the Nurburgring last year.
    Our 2013 Nürburgring/Spa trip cost us less than it will to drive at COTA.
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    But obviously I just dont get it. -fatbillybob

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    Sir flink
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    BMWCCA race in March is $749. Three day event.

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