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Thread: seeking setup/handling advice.. again

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    Member crany's Avatar
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    Default seeking setup/handling advice.. again

    alright, so some of you might remember my last post. This is pretty much just a continuation of that. I haven't touched the car since then until just recently.
    Refresher: FF Civic, rear likes to get a little loose. was asking where I should start with the tweaking.. settled on it being a combo of rock hard RA-1s an most likely rear sway bar too stiff; and some poor technique I'm sure.
    So I recently fixed all the damage on car and went to simply adjust the sway bar setting to find out its already on its softest. So I'm at my current decision of slightly adjusting toe in or loosening damping more.. Car is in the air at the moment, but think I have had toe at like 1/8" in; and wondering if on these civics as the rear suspension compresses if it is is slightly toeing out? thought I read that somewhere, and that's why they sell offset bushings/spherical bearings for the trailing arms.
    shocks are at 3 of 5 in rear..
    Where should I start?

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    Not Certified Slow SDSUsnowboards's Avatar
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    I'd remove the rear sway bar and see how that goes.
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    Senior Member 0.o slow 1.6's Avatar
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    Retest the car wiyh new tires. Sound like the ra1 are heat cycle out. It will also help out if you post your car setup.
    Last edited by 0.o slow 1.6; 05-01-2012 at 03:48 PM.
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    Administrator ucfbrett's Avatar
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    We need a Honda Challenge guy to help find a solution.

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    Sir flink
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    Quote Originally Posted by 0.o slow 1.6 View Post
    Retest the car wiyh new tires.
    This. Don't bother trying to tune the setup on junk tires.

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    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif emilio700's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flink View Post
    This. Don't bother trying to tune the setup on junk tires.
    +1

    Waste of time to attempt tuning handling with bad tires
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    Quote Originally Posted by ucfbrett View Post
    We need a Honda Challenge guy to help find a solution.
    +1 Although, i dont know if any HC drivers are on here. Plenty of guys you can contact, but if you dont know any of them maybe Edo can help you:

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    Quote Originally Posted by flink View Post
    This. Don't bother trying to tune the setup on junk tires.
    +1
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    Quote Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
    +1

    Waste of time to attempt tuning handling with bad tires
    ok.. I have new tires also..
    So say, for the sake of making the best out of my next track day, that it still wants to get a little loose, usually more at higher speeds.. when I pull in the pits what would you guys recommend tweaking first? damping, or toe? or other?

    ...also, 1/8" rear toe sounds around normal specs then? think i set that based on stock/street alignments..
    car spends its life in a garage now, and the occasional track day; so wondering if I should run a little more aggressive alignment?
    just looking for some confidence back in this thing.. if it sounds like tires had the majority to do with it I'll believe you..
    Thanks-

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    Senior Member 0.o slow 1.6's Avatar
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    What is your alignment right now? I would put the toe back to 0 to toe-in or more negative camber in the rear if the car is to twitchy for you. Most Honda Challenge cars are setup to be very twitchy to get the most out of low speed corners. They run a wing to compensate for the high speed corners.
    Last edited by 0.o slow 1.6; 05-02-2012 at 10:26 AM.
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    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif emilio700's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crany View Post
    ok.. I have new tires also..
    So say, for the sake of making the best out of my next track day, that it still wants to get a little loose, usually more at higher speeds.. when I pull in the pits what would you guys recommend tweaking first? damping, or toe? or other?

    ...also, 1/8" rear toe sounds around normal specs then? think i set that based on stock/street alignments..
    car spends its life in a garage now, and the occasional track day; so wondering if I should run a little more aggressive alignment?
    just looking for some confidence back in this thing.. if it sounds like tires had the majority to do with it I'll believe you..
    Thanks-
    What are your tire pyrometer readings taken when the car was loose on fresh tires?

    If you don't have any tire pyro data, I recommend eating one more donut than usual and skipping the second cup of coffee. It's nearly as likely to fix the problem as the other options you mentioned and tastes better.
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    Smack-Talkin' Member J. Tyler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crany View Post
    ok.. I have new tires also..
    So say, for the sake of making the best out of my next track day, that it still wants to get a little loose, usually more at higher speeds.. when I pull in the pits what would you guys recommend tweaking first?
    Try adding more throttle. Prior to entering pits, and just following said feeling of oversteer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
    What are your tire pyrometer readings taken when the car was loose on fresh tires?

    If you don't have any tire pyro data, I recommend eating one more donut than usual and skipping the second cup of coffee. It's nearly as likely to fix the problem as the other options you mentioned and tastes better.
    ...always so friendly here!
    haven't tested with new tires yet. smaller tracks (HTM) ate up the freshness of other tires.. handled great there but speeds weren't as high as Buttonwillow, where I was getting the oversteer at the higher speeds.. That's why I ask.. could be just tires, could be alignment, could be aero related, and technique? just curious..

    tires usually read around 190, 38 hot psi..

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    Senior Member 0.o slow 1.6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crany View Post
    tires usually read around 190, 38 hot psi..
    I think 38 psi for ra1 is to high.
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    Administrator ucfbrett's Avatar
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    38 psi is spot-on for RA1s. From what I understand, you can go as high as 39 and 40 and still be good.


    I'm also curious why like toe out in the rear?

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    Member crany's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ucfbrett View Post

    I'm also curious why like toe out in the rear?
    nah, I don't..
    thought I read in the past though that when you lower civic/crx the articulation gets weird. Toe could be set at 0 at ride height but wondering if its possibly becoming positive as it's loaded up; maybe causing the oversteer I'm getting.. they sell offset trailing arm bushings/sphericals to compromise for it I think, just haven't looked into it yet. Figured I'd get some experienced track guy opinions before buying into tuner market sales pitches..

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    Senior Member azngotmilk's Avatar
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    i would get fresh tires and remove that rear sway bar... thats exactly what i did when i ran **** tires and had oversteering problems

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    Member crany's Avatar
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    just found this.. if it helps back my theory? but sounds like I'll just try current setup w/ new tires and go from there..

    pci-spherical-screenshot2.bmp
    Last edited by crany; 05-02-2012 at 02:22 PM.

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    Administrator ucfbrett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azngotmilk View Post
    i would get fresh tires and remove that rear sway bar... thats exactly what i did when i ran **** tires and had oversteering problems
    This sounds like good start. Tires first. Test. Then remove sway bar if necessary. From what little I know about FWD cars, suspension setup tips are different from RWD, but removing the sway bar will produce more body roll, which will more heavily weight the outside rear tire. I think.

    Bring tools.

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    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif emilio700's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crany View Post
    ...always so friendly here!
    haven't tested with new tires yet. smaller tracks (HTM) ate up the freshness of other tires.. handled great there but speeds weren't as high as Buttonwillow, where I was getting the oversteer at the higher speeds.. That's why I ask.. could be just tires, could be alignment, could be aero related, and technique? just curious..

    tires usually read around 190, 38 hot psi..
    Tire temps across the tread? One temp doesn't tell us too much. I can tell you more about the way the car is working by looking at those twelve numbers and a stopwatch than every other bit of data combined.

    You say you are just curious, well so are we. If you want random speculation, you will get plenty of it by asking open ended questions like your first post. If you want meaningful advice on setup from the several people hear that know how to do it, you will need to provide some data. Lets start with the following partial list to get us in the neighborhood

    All data from conditions that generated the condition you are trying to diagnose

    Vehicle weight with driver
    approximate whp
    any wedge
    Weight distribution
    Tire size
    Tire compound
    wheel width
    wheel offset
    wheel spacer thickness
    front sway bar diameter, setting if adjustable
    rear sway bar diameter, setting if adjustable
    front camber
    front caster
    front toe
    rear camber
    rear toe
    front ride height and where you measured it from
    rear ride height and where you measured it from
    description or pics of aero mods, if any
    diff brand and type
    damper brand and type
    spring rates, primary
    spring rates, secondary

    Tough to get the answer you want if you ask the wrong question
    Last edited by emilio700; 05-02-2012 at 05:01 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ucfbrett View Post
    We need a Honda Challenge guy to help find a solution.
    Yes. Or for your best baseline setup, take your car to Darin (sp?) at West Side Alignment. Very experienced and tracks his own front drive Honda.

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