+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 18 of 18
Like Tree1Likes
  • 1 Post By Richard EVO

Thread: red flag ? what to do.

  1. #1
    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    La Verne, California, United States
    Posts
    7,644
    Liked
    2282 times

    Default red flag ? what to do.

    you guys remembered the VARA event at Buttonwillow when 6 cars stopped over the Phil's Hill Crest, and the next car ram into the back of a stopped car.

    I had an incident on Saturday at ACS with similar red flag issue:

    I was in a student car (Oli's customer). We came to T3, there was a waving red flag. my student immediately slowed to crawling speed, but still moving at say ~10mph. I heard T3 corner worker yelled at us, "STOP, STOP". By the time we were at T4, my student stopped immediately upon hearing that. I looked back, there were already 3 cars stacked behind us. from my view, I could barely see the oval straight. thoughts of VARA events immediately flash before me, I told the student to move forward slowly. Student was now confused, but inches forward. In the mean time, the corner worker got on even louder, telling us to STOP. I ignored it, and told my student to move till about 200FT past T4 apex. By now, I counted 7 cars stuck behind us.

    I talked to Aaron afterward, he specifically told all corner workers to be aware of the VARA issue, and he then had a talk with the corner worker.

    question:
    1. since you would be hauling, upon seeing the first red flag, you most likely of passed the first red flag station already when you've slowed down (you are supposed to double confirm the red flag, check mirror, slow down and come to a stop). I believe the rule says proceed and stop at a spot with clear sight of the next flag station. That would mean you are quite a bit passed the first flag station by now, in certain track / turns, you might be 1/2-1 mile past the first station that displayed a red flag.

    2. in a racing situation. you have to stay in order ? can you past the car in front, if say he picked a bad spot, or a spot that can't see the next flag station ? what happens usually on a restart after a red flag ?
    Supermiata S1, SuperMiata S2, Supermiata S3
    13 Tesla, ma: no engine !!
    17 GT350 !!
    08 M3 - Carmax warranty !!
    96 NSX
    06 EVO MR
    15 Mini Cooper S

  2. #2
    Senior Member suki101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Altadena, CA
    Posts
    160
    Liked
    35 times

    Default

    Taken verbatim from the SCCA GCR:

    I. RED FLAG (Solid Red)
    Displayed at each station and on the Starter’s stand – EXTREME
    DANGER – THE SESSION HAS BEEN STOPPED. Come to an immediate,
    controlled stop at the side of the race track (preferably before and
    within sight of a staffed station or where specified in the event Supplemental
    Regulations). When released by an official, proceed cautiously
    to the pits. Once a red flag has been displayed, it will not be withdrawn
    until all cars have come to a stop.
    NOTE: THE RED FLAG CAN ONLY BE DISPLAYED BY ORDER OF THE
    CHIEF STEWARD AS RELAYED THROUGH RACE CONTROL.

    The first driver schools I attended the instructors told the students that when the red flag was thrown you need to:
    1. Check your mirrors
    2. Pull over to the right when safe not stopping in the middle of a corner or stright
    3. Never get out of the car unless instructed

    The only red flag race I have been in was restarted in qualifying order. Not sure how other sanctioning bodies would do it

  3. #3
    The Real Captain Slow Red_5's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Santa Barbara
    Posts
    4,188
    Liked
    704 times

    Default

    William, great question and maybe you should ask at the racer meeting on Saturday. I know we all know the meaning and what to do but in practice will it be done correctly so all cars can come to a stop in a safe place? I don't know why cars couldn't drive slowly to the next corner worker and pull over, hopefully on a straight.
    99 Mazda Miata SuperMiata #515 - AKA Sparky SOLD
    '91 Mariner Blue Miata project AKA Napoleon

  4. #4
    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    La Verne, California, United States
    Posts
    7,644
    Liked
    2282 times

    Default

    I am trying to think of an example.

    Say BW13, you are hauling at 150mph (not a Miata nor s2000) coming upon Sweeper. You see a red flag, there is no way for you to stop before the flag station. Even if you could, wouldn't be a good idea, as there area my cars behind you also hauling butt.

    So you should keep on driving slowly till 200ft before Sunset ?
    Supermiata S1, SuperMiata S2, Supermiata S3
    13 Tesla, ma: no engine !!
    17 GT350 !!
    08 M3 - Carmax warranty !!
    96 NSX
    06 EVO MR
    15 Mini Cooper S

  5. #5
    Senior Member rhouck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Northridge, CA
    Posts
    169
    Liked
    60 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bellwilliam View Post
    I am trying to think of an example.

    Say BW13, you are hauling at 150mph (not a Miata nor s2000) coming upon Sweeper. You see a red flag, there is no way for you to stop before the flag station. Even if you could, wouldn't be a good idea, as there area my cars behind you also hauling butt.

    So you should keep on driving slowly till 200ft before Sunset ?
    Go straight towards Star Mazda
    Follow my racing: https://www.youtube.com/ryandhouck
    2009 Yamaha R6 (race bike)
    2014 Triumph Street Triple R (street bike)
    2009 Honda S2000
    2008 BMW M3 (sold)

  6. #6
    The Real Captain Slow Red_5's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Santa Barbara
    Posts
    4,188
    Liked
    704 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bellwilliam View Post
    I am trying to think of an example.

    Say BW13, you are hauling at 150mph (not a Miata nor s2000) coming upon Sweeper. You see a red flag, there is no way for you to stop before the flag station. Even if you could, wouldn't be a good idea, as there area my cars behind you also hauling butt.

    So you should keep on driving slowly till 200ft before Sunset ?
    Yes, I think that's the right thing to do.
    99 Mazda Miata SuperMiata #515 - AKA Sparky SOLD
    '91 Mariner Blue Miata project AKA Napoleon

  7. #7
    Spec Backhoe Champion redtopz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    1,229
    Liked
    981 times

    Default

    I thought it was pretty important to pull over to a safe spot and stop ASAP so they can send out the medical staff and fire crew to take care of the guy having a cardiac arrest or burning in his car? Just don't stop in the middle of the track or in a blind spot and you should be fine. I would think this should take less than 5 seconds once you see the flag. As an official or corner worker (or if I were the guy in distress) I would be pretty pissed if I saw a car continue to cruise along the track slowly for 30 seconds looking for a perfect spot to stop. At least that is my understanding.

  8. #8
    Senior Member azngotmilk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    socal 714
    Posts
    195
    Liked
    32 times

    Default

    I wouldn't instantly slam on the brakes and stop. I would immediately slow down (in a quicker fashion), check all mirrors (get a quick glace to see whose around me), proceed with caution and stop only if its safe. Whats the point of stopping if its going to cause a more dangerous situation?

    There are some track day organizations that don't even use the red flag. tsk tsk? lol

  9. #9
    Spec Backhoe Champion redtopz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    1,229
    Liked
    981 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by azngotmilk View Post
    I wouldn't instantly slam on the brakes and stop. I would immediately slow down (in a quicker fashion), check all mirrors (get a quick glace to see whose around me), proceed with caution and stop only if its safe. Whats the point of stopping if its going to cause a more dangerous situation?

    There are some track day organizations that don't even use the red flag. tsk tsk? lol
    Exactly. Assuming you already are aware of who is around you and where you are on the track that shouldn't take more than 5 seconds. Ok, maybe 7 seconds .

  10. #10
    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    La Verne, California, United States
    Posts
    7,644
    Liked
    2282 times

    Default

    understand what both of you are saying. but isn't the GCR / CCR say to stop at a spot where you could see the next flag station ?

    some flag stations are pretty far apart.

    this is the reason I am asking. I don't know what the answer is. while I see the need to drive 30MPH for another 1/2 mile till I can see the next station. it also seem kinda strange to keep on driving for another 30 seconds while emergency vehicles are trying to attend to cars on fire. or worse, the car on fire might be between Sweeper and Sunset in my example.
    Supermiata S1, SuperMiata S2, Supermiata S3
    13 Tesla, ma: no engine !!
    17 GT350 !!
    08 M3 - Carmax warranty !!
    96 NSX
    06 EVO MR
    15 Mini Cooper S

  11. #11
    LongWinded National Champ Bueller's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    1,748
    Liked
    168 times

    Default

    Ive been in about 2 races this year with red flags. One was pretty similar to your ACS story and happened in the same spot. Was racing in SM with SCCA. Had an SM behind me bump drafting. We were entering T3 (no red flag, and i have it on video). Red flag was issued in T4. I figured it was too dangerous to stop given the situation so i waved quickly so the corner workers and the cars behind me could see. I then slowed down and stopped at the entrance of T5.

    Regarding your example about people passing in a situation like that in a race for safety reasons. Some people are aware and if they purposely passed you for safety reasons they will give the spot back. But sometimes people get confused and dont know they passed someone. So your best bet is to have video because were all bound to make mistakes. And you cant completely rely on the organization because they will make mistakes sometimes. At another SCCA race this year i was in a FCY situation. Even though it was FCY, 2 cars passed me. One was in my class, the other was out of class, but it seemed like they were in their own race against each other. The corner workers caught it and while in impound the stewards confirmed that they passed me under FCY. Even though they saw it and confirmed it, the guy who was in my class wasnt DQd and still finished ahead of me on the official results. Goes to show that just because they catch it doesnt mean it will be corrected.
    Team Rambling Warrior Poet


    RRE
    Robispec
    Girodisc
    SCM
    APR

  12. #12
    Administrator ucfbrett's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Ventura, Calif.
    Posts
    5,449
    Liked
    2243 times

    Default

    In your ACS example, I would pull over at track right just after T4 with the T4 corner worker in my mirror, yet T5 in sight.

    In your Buttonwillow example, I would enter the Sweeper and pull over at track right, no more than halfway through it, with the flag station at the entry to the Sweeper in my mirror and in sight of the flag station at the exit of the Sweeper.

    And either one could be wrong.

  13. #13
    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    6,853
    Liked
    1429 times

    Default

    I'll slow down and stop somewhere safe. If it's an awkward spot, I'll creep the car forwards very slowly to get to where I can see a station well.

  14. #14
    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif emilio700's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    3,628
    Liked
    2398 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by robburgoon View Post
    I'll slow down and stop somewhere safe. If it's an awkward spot, I'll creep the car forwards very slowly to get to where I can see a station well.
    +1

    That's what I would do to. One has to keep in mind the purpose of the red flag. Stop safely. If you have brought your speed way down but can not find a safe place to stop, proceed at reduced speed until you can.

    In the instance of Phil Hill, I would have not bombed over at full speed nor would I have stop just on the other side of the crest. As with most track accidents, there were about 4 things that went wrong to cause the secondary incident. Any one of those 4 eliminated and no accident.
    WWW.949RACING.COM
    SuperMiata

    Aside from their cost I never understood why people race them.
    But obviously I just dont get it. -fatbillybob

  15. #15
    Senior Member Gian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Ventura
    Posts
    1,200
    Liked
    464 times

    Default

    I have been tought and teach;
    Always assume the guys behind you did not see the red flag.
    Check Mirrors(you should already know if someone's close behind you) slow to a safe stop. If possible by a worker.

    So you did the right thing.
    That's not a Typo, I just can't spell no so well.

  16. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    10,979
    Liked
    1477 times

    Default

    Geez guyz, it ain't Rocket Science. You see a red flag. You look to see what is around you, including your mirrors. You slow down but not to the point of causing the guy behind you to hit you. You get off line and find a place to stop that is not blind to other drivers, hopefully where you can see instructions from a corner worker. How many times do we have repeat in this silly thread what we all have heard about red flag rules in every driver's meeting, yada, yada, yada.

    Use your head. Don't be stupid. Thank you Captain Obvious.
    78kona likes this.
    The deposed former Sheriff of trackHQ . . .

    2006 Porsche 997 Carerra Coupe 6-MT - daily driver
    1992 Honda (Acura) NSX 5-MT - classic investment I couldn't resist and occasionally drive
    2004 Honda S2000 AP2 6-MT - track day car
    2006 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution IX MR 6-MT - when I need a backseat, 4-doors, or a real trunk, and still want to haul ass . . .

  17. #17
    Member 78kona's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    French Valley
    Posts
    46
    Liked
    19 times

    Default

    "This means that the session has been stopped. No passing is allowed, except in an emergency situation to avoid collision. This flag is a strict command, displayed (globally) to all drivers, ordering them to come to controlled stop on the side of the track; out of harm’s way, and in view of the next manned flag station. If a driver is forced to stop in an unsafe location due to the position of the vehicle directly ahead of them, the driver may pull off course, pass that vehicle, or take whatever action necessary to protect them from perceived danger. The driver that chooses this option, shall be held accountable, and may be penalized in competitive standings if the Race Director finds that such action was inexcusable or unacceptable. However, no other penalties should be assessed for actions based solely on the claim of personal safety, as it pertains to this section"

    There it is. Straight from NASA CCR. Seems like SCCA may be a bit different? I do not know. I have never read there's. just use common sense. As in... Don't slow down like you are trying to out brake someone, pull over near the side of the track, in a safe spot where you can see a corner worker so that you know when you can proceed around the track.
    Allan Hauser
    2011 So Cal SE30 Champion
    2012 So Cal SE30 Champion

  18. #18
    Senior Member psychoazn's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    516
    Liked
    41 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by robburgoon View Post
    I'll slow down and stop somewhere safe. If it's an awkward spot, I'll creep the car forwards very slowly to get to where I can see a station well.
    This is precisely what I did following the McLaren incident on Sunday. Slowed down, stopped near a flag worker, off line.
    pucsicsal - The fastest unit of speed measurement is not the speed of light, it is the speed of flatout. Hence the BRZs limit.

+ Reply to Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts