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Thread: Punt at WSIR with NASA

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    Senior Member ELO168's Avatar
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    Default Punt at WSIR with NASA

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    Señor Member b3d3g1's Avatar
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    Ryan Flaherty comment on the video:

    People are entitled to an opinion but you are out of your mind to think you stand on the right side of making such poor decision-making in a race. Your poor judgment put someone’s safety at risk. The video shows clear as day that you forced the issue and did not “leave racing room” as required by the CCR. It is scary to think that you can watch that video of you rubbing your car on mine and tell yourself that I turned down on you. You might as well say I wanted to kill myself because the choice to turn down at that point on the track makes no logical sense.

    In addition, your body contact report indicates that you were “ALONG SIDE” and “NEITHER PASSING OR BEING PASSED.” Either you intentionally lied on your body contact report (and you accuse me and a NASA official about conspiracy) or it shows your sate of mind. If you think you weren’t being passed and I didn’t have the right to the line you should never be racing.

    The facts are simple:
    You made a big error in turn 8
    You knew I had a run on you (you check your mirrors several times)
    You *should* know you are going to get passed
    You INTENTIONALY drive my car from track left to edge of track right to intimidate me
    You intentionally stay less than 1” from my car as I have the right to the line and overtaking
    The video shows your right wheel movement as my car gets turned
    Point of impact was 200ft from the braking marker. Both cars were 100% acceleration mode

    It is all right there plain as day. It is so awful that you can make such a poor decision with such significant results and simply think you were in the right.
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    Senior Member ELO168's Avatar
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    Yeah I just saw it now.
    Is going to be ugly pissing contest.
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    Señor Member b3d3g1's Avatar
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    Patris is not doing himself any favors by acting so childish with his taunting but I'm surprised to see Ryan responding to it, especially on facebook. It's kind of entertaining in a sick way.
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    Senior Member ELO168's Avatar
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    Yeap
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    Senior Member KJSCV's Avatar
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    Reading the Facebook, watching the video and reading the accident report he filled out looks like Patris is in denial...

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    Cripes. A little give and take once in a while would be nice.
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    Senior Member Silversprint's Avatar
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    Why is one driver only posting stills instead of the full video which would be more useful, specially if it shows his hands.
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    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
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    So first pass through his video I ignored all text, watched the contact, came to my (shaky) conclusion.

    Second time though his video I read the text. "Ryan opts to door to door race me to intimidate me at the fastest part of the track."

    Been racing long? Not scoring any points with that comment...
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    Senior Member fatbillybob's Avatar
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    Looks like racing incident to me. The rolling car looks like he could have backed out if he thought he was getting pinched. Passer has responsibility to pass safely. You force the issue when you have the advantage. I don't get the drift to the right thing. That's the line out of T9 to set up for T1. The driver is driving a predictable known line. An outside pass going into T1 is low percentage unless it is complete well before the braking zone. But video is lame and I'm tired.

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    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
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    ********************OLD***************** *****
    So I think that per the rules, Ryan is at fault. Passing car needs to complete the pass safely, be ready to drop tires (silly going into a braking zone, but it's a silly rule), figure 8 in nasa rules, etc etc.

    That said, Patris looks pretty dumb in his contact report and video, and his driving is damn suspicious. Once his nose isn't ahead any more, he needs to take a little responsibility for ensuring a wreck doesn't happen. It doesn't look like Ryan was squeezing down, and if they touched front tires together before, I don't know why he isn't moving apart 6 inches after that. If they didn't touch fronts, it looks like he's moving in closer on purpose. I can see how folks could see this as a punt/takeout reaction to being passed.


    Conclusion? Both drivers at fault, Warning and/or probation for Ryan, 2 weekend suspension for Patris.
    ********************OLD***************** *****


    Edit: Chewed on it a little more, the front tires touching (if they touched) wasn't contact due to NASA definition of contact. So the only contact that counts was front tire vs rear tire. The NASA rules favor the leading car pretty heavily in such a punt scenario, short of a swipe on the part of the leading car. So might actually be a correct call after all. A little harsh maybe, but a car did roll and the guy seems to be a moron.
    Last edited by robburgoon; 03-23-2016 at 12:40 AM.
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    Track Whore Pure EvoIX's Avatar
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    https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https...Vk&h=SAQEMyddv
    @1:26-1:27. Replay 5 times if you have to. You'll see it. I think right call, but really harsh punishment. Patris fault.

    There. Those 2 right steering inputs was the mistake. Notice the tower in back ground. It was clearly moving left, meaning the car moved right.
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    Senior Member fatbillybob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pure EvoIX View Post
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    @1:26-1:27. Replay 5 times if you have to. You'll see it. I think right call, but really harsh punishment. Patris fault.

    There. Those 2 right steering inputs was the mistake. Notice the tower in back ground. It was clearly moving left, meaning the car moved right.
    I did not view it 5x but nothing happens clearly on a single video. Video lies and while we all chew on this event it happened at 100+ MPH. We do this for fun. I don't think either party was having fun that day.

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    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pure EvoIX View Post
    https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https...Vk&h=SAQEMyddv
    @1:26-1:27. Replay 5 times if you have to. You'll see it. I think right call, but really harsh punishment. Patris fault.

    There. Those 2 right steering inputs was the mistake. Notice the tower in back ground. It was clearly moving left, meaning the car moved right.
    Not 100% sure those inputs were actual inputs by the driver, I think they might have been caused by the tires touching in each case.

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    Spec Backhoe Champion redtopz's Avatar
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    Steering inputs are important to consider, but only show part of the story. They don't show the current trajectory of either car. It's possible for a car to be heading slightly diagonal across the track, closing the door on a passing car and causing an incident even without any steering inputs.
    The penalty is harsh, but in the end I would agree he should have just moved over to the left a bit and given another foot or two on the right to avoid contact. Ryan was there and moving ahead. Why risk it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatbillybob View Post
    I don't think either party was having fun that day.
    True words. Just because the rules say you 'can' doesn't mean you 'should'. A couple of racers weekends ruined, one car munched ($$), and one racer sitting out for a year. Thankfully no one got hurt. All for the lack of giving a little racing room. I'll bet moving over a couple of inches makes a lot more sense in hindsight.

    It is a good thing the purses are so large in club racing It makes this kind of stuff worthwhile.
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    Señor Member b3d3g1's Avatar
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    My gripe with the situation is that Ryan was involved. Big hypothetical but I don't think the penalty would have been the same if the roles were reversed. I don't agree that the governing bodies of a such a large organization should be allowed to race at their own events.
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    The Real Captain Slow Red_5's Avatar
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    The real question is what the hell kind of crappy video camera was that? It looks like it's aimed well enough to have some decent exposure for outside the car. It looks like it has about 2 stops of latitude. At least it recorded something . . .

    I only watched it once. The hand moves mentioned could easily have been bump corrections, we all know how crappy the condition is of WSIR. Another way to look at it is Honda Challenge seems to encourage aggressive driving. Most of the cars I've seen are beat to crap. Fast, but beat to crap. When I raced PTE with NASA and we raced the same group as HC, I saw plenty of suspect moves. I feel like it's a racing incident by HC standards of driving - at least the standards I witnessed 3 years ago when still racing NASA.
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    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red_5 View Post
    The real question is what the hell kind of crappy video camera was that? It looks like it's aimed well enough to have some decent exposure for outside the car. It looks like it has about 2 stops of latitude. At least it recorded something . . .

    I only watched it once. The hand moves mentioned could easily have been bump corrections, we all know how crappy the condition is of WSIR. Another way to look at it is Honda Challenge seems to encourage aggressive driving. Most of the cars I've seen are beat to crap. Fast, but beat to crap. When I raced PTE with NASA and we raced the same group as HC, I saw plenty of suspect moves. I feel like it's a racing incident by HC standards of driving - at least the standards I witnessed 3 years ago when still racing NASA.
    Another component to it is FWD. FWD cars can take lots more punishment before spinning.

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    A few observations...

    Toe/steering alignment slightly left/CCW in camera car?

    When cars get that close together at speed, low pressure air can occur in close quarters (Bernoulli). Similar to towing and overtaking a larger big rig.

    Pinching (safely) w/ racing room is part of race craft (not blocking or punting). On the flip side, I race with many people who respect momentum and I do as well. That is, when another car has a run on you, and the pass (or contact!) is inevitable, you let it happen, given them room. And look for an opportunity to take the position back in another corner down the road. There's no sense in slowing up both cars, and risk giving up another position to cars behind. Too much infighting and the rest of the pack takes off.

    One of the key differences with NASA and the SCCA is that the appeals process is carried out very differently. SCCA seems to have more "due process" and appeal often reverses earlier decisions, even if on procedural grounds. They also uphold a lot of valid decisions too. Additionally there's more transparency (e.g. Fast Track). NASA isn't setup this way. There's good and bad with that.

    (OT) Cameras: In this day and age all cars should have a forward facing and running video camera (hopefully with better white balance too). It should be a tech-able, but non-penalty item. Incidents can rarely be judged by one camera angle and in some cases two won't even tell the whole story. More cameras doesn't solve the problem, but I'll take that over statements from the heat of battle any day. And maybe there was other video reviewed in this incident? I wouldn't expect race officials to disclose any of the evidence publicly (though I am surprised photos were shared).
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