View Poll Results: Should "Time Trials" be considered "Racing"?

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  • Yes, Time-Trials should be considered "racing"

    20 43.48%
  • No, only W2W is considered "racing"

    26 56.52%
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Thread: Poll: Should "Time Trials" be considered "Racing"?

  1. #41
    Master of Disaster SteveLevin's Avatar
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    We can worldplay all we want...but if we use mathematical terms, it's easier to describe:

    Time Trials are a subset of wheel-to-wheel racing.

    There are just major skills such as passing for position that simply aren't exercised in Time Trials.

    Steve

  2. #42
    Chest hair required Olitho's Avatar
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    I never watched Seinfeld, but I heard it was an entertaining show about nothing.

    I think this thread is an entertaining series of posts about nothing.

    Just don't listen to RichardEvo. He owns a Corvette.

    To the right of The Sheriff. Isn't everyone?

  3. #43
    Racepar Engineering racepar1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanB View Post
    This thread is pretentious and irrelevant. Racing is a speed contest. It's always against an opponent; it's irrelevant if the objective is measured by a checkered or a clock.

    There's no question that there are different levels of competition. An F1 driver could easily take the same "racing" pyramid graphic (posted earlier) and place Formula 1 solely at the top of it. A BTCC driver might do the same thing because we (in grassroots motorsport) are not doing enough to earn (or defend) a pass. But I would expect that many of the pros would be more humble about it than some of you. Simply because the competition isn't up to your standards doesn't make the wins (or losses) any less real for the people making the sacrifices to be there. It's out of line to diminish the hardship and perseverance by arbitrarily labeling it as anything less.

    We all make sacrifices in our lives to get behind the wheel and compete at a level we can afford. It's what brings us altogether. I know many successful w2w racers who had to turn to autocrossing after having kids. That's life. Other forms of racing might not be my thing, but who the hell am I to tell them it's not racing. If an hour doesn't go by that you're not thinking about driving faster than anyone else, you're a racer.

    I expect this quote will resonate with all of you:

    "A lot of people go through life doing things badly. Racing's important to men who do it well. When you're racing, it's life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting." -- Steve McQueen in Le Mans

    I personally use the term "racer" when reffering to a person much more loosely then the term "race" when referring to a competition of speed. Your theory on what makes a person a racer is spot-on IMO. The w2w guys are definitely coming off pretty elitist, but they have earned that. Driving in a REAL race takes MUCH more skill then going out for a time attack session. It also takes much more dedication and money to compete in an actual race series. Those guys have paid a lot of dues and deserve an additional amount of respect.


    Nice use of the Steve McQueen quote BTW! I LOVE that movie and that quote!


  4. #44
    Chest hair required Olitho's Avatar
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    Where is this cafeteria?

    No one ever told me about it, I have never been there.
    To the right of The Sheriff. Isn't everyone?

  5. #45
    Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olitho View Post
    I never watched Seinfeld, but I heard it was an entertaining show about nothing.

    I think this thread is an entertaining series of posts about nothing.

    Just don't listen to RichardEvo. He owns a Corvette.

    I didn't start the poll, to the contrary, someone who disagrees with me started the poll. I'm starting my own.
    The deposed former Sheriff of trackHQ . . .

    2006 Porsche 997 Carerra Coupe 6-MT - daily driver
    1992 Honda (Acura) NSX 5-MT - classic investment I couldn't resist and occasionally drive
    2004 Honda S2000 AP2 6-MT - track day car
    2006 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution IX MR 6-MT - when I need a backseat, 4-doors, or a real trunk, and still want to haul ass . . .

  6. #46
    CRG-Rotax Warrior Moving Chicane's Avatar
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    I think Hayashi would appreciate being credited with some of the material....
    http://www.nsxfiles.com/Pyramid_of_speed.htm


    Quote Originally Posted by 600RR_Rocket View Post
    So after a short debate with Uncle Rich, I've decided to post a poll because I am very curious to see what TrackHQ members consider "racing."

    Uncle Rich claims that only W2W should be considered racing, and he proudly sits on top of this pyramid:




    Already Gone.

  7. #47
    What's Traction Control? 600RR_Rocket's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moving Chicane View Post
    I think Hayashi would appreciate being credited with some of the material....
    http://www.nsxfiles.com/Pyramid_of_speed.htm
    Very good point...thanks!

  8. #48
    Chest hair required Olitho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moving Chicane View Post
    I think Hayashi would appreciate being credited with some of the material....
    http://www.nsxfiles.com/Pyramid_of_speed.htm
    Ahhhh! I should have guessed this is a Hayashi creation. Having known him from his days at Microsoft and the IT industry, well during that era the industry just loved those pyramids.


    Oli
    To the right of The Sheriff. Isn't everyone?

  9. #49
    Senior Member Matt Andrews's Avatar
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    additional evidence here:

    Mazda has a ladder for racers. At the end of the season they invite the winners of sanctioned series that win in a mazda to compete for a seat in the next series up in racing. Time trialers, time attackers, and auto-x'ers are not invited. Only (w2w) racers.

    As much as I enjoy time attack, its not racing. I will however enjoy the 5 lap race that the hold at willow springs during the time attack for all competitors with a race worthy car and a race license. Should be interesting to see what cars can actually turn 5 laps on big willow without overheating. :P

  10. #50
    LongWinded National Champ Bueller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris@Redline View Post
    For those who say that W2W is the only form of "true" racing.
    Would that make tandem drifting like we see in FD or D1GP real racing?
    ...
    Drifting is drifting. Time trials are time trials. Autox is autox. Time attacks are just time attacks.
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  11. #51
    LongWinded National Champ Bueller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olitho View Post
    So what is the first thing everyone thinks of when someones says "I was watching a car race." Do you think of an HPDE, drifting, a time trial, time attack or a wheel to wheel race with a bunch of cars on track jockeying for position to cross the finish line first? The answer to that question is indicative of the classic definition.

    Now what if we are talking about the land speed records? The organization running that around these parts is called SCTA, Southern California Timing Association. That is probably the oldest organization running such an event. It is not called SCRA.

    I have heard rallies called rally racing. There is drag racing as you do run against another car. The Dakar is called a rally, but the Baja 1000 is called a race. Hillclimbs are called races I think, but are really a time attack. Put two cars on the starting line and it is truly a race that would be gnarly. If you are racing on the street against another car you get busted for street racing. If you are going excessively fast by yourself it is called exhibition of speed or reckless driving. I could go on....

    With that said above you can form your own opinion and I am sure everyone has one already, but I will go on to say I think a time trial/time attack is a speed sport and/or a race against the clock. I would call it racing, it just is not in the classic sense which takes us all back to my first paragraph.
    I think thats another way to put it. When i think of racing i dont think of drifting events, or time attacks, or autox, or time trials.
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  12. #52
    LongWinded National Champ Bueller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olitho View Post
    Where is this cafeteria?

    No one ever told me about it, I have never been there.
    Good one Oli. My stupid noob butt was about to give it away. Yeah, what/where is the cafeteria? I almost forgot to keep our super duper secret racer lingo on the down-low.
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