View Poll Results: Should "Time Trials" be considered "Racing"?

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  • Yes, Time-Trials should be considered "racing"

    20 43.48%
  • No, only W2W is considered "racing"

    26 56.52%
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Thread: Poll: Should "Time Trials" be considered "Racing"?

  1. #21
    LongWinded National Champ Bueller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red_5 View Post
    But there are also rallies that are little more than a Sunday drive. I think WRC is more of a race than a Sunday drive.

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/race

    e
    Are you seriously referencing an online dictionary? Without turning this into some debate on semantics, i will say that youre wrong. And i will provide no proof for my statement other than im right and youre wrong. In all seriousness, time trials, time attacks, autox events...none of them compare to real w2w/d2d racing. I dont know what sort of experience you have, but if youre not a racer, i would say keep an open mind. If you ever do get into racing, you will be in for a serious wake-up call. Time attacks are called time attacks because they are nothing more than that. The same applies to time trials, autox, and HPDEs. They are all referred to by those names because thats what they are.
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  2. #22
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    w2w is racing..... time trials is not..

    but in my crazy head... ill get into it with some dude during an hpde & we'll straight up race.. its happened many times.. so whatever

    when u putting a wheel up towards someones door or fender, divebombin or whatever to make that pass... thas racin... easy enough

    aint no schematics or drawing to make this conclusion.. its about havin fun
    driving cars n stuff....

  3. #23
    The Real Captain Slow Red_5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bueller View Post
    Are you seriously referencing an online dictionary?
    It was easier than Webster's . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Bueller View Post
    Without turning this into some debate on semantics,
    I think you were beat to it by the second or third post . . . that's what this is

    I see where people are coming from and I'm not a w2w racer yet, although I would like to think I'm on the road to it, this really is just debating semantics. If it's truly more than that, I'll shut up because I don't care enough.

    e
    Last edited by Red_5; 05-16-2009 at 09:11 PM.

  4. #24
    LongWinded National Champ Bueller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red_5 View Post
    It was easier than Webster's . . .


    I think you were beat to it by the second or third post . . . that's what this is

    I see where people are coming from and I'm not a w2w racer yet, although I would like to think I'm on the road to it, this really is just debating semantics. If it's truly more than that, I'll shut up because I don't care enough.

    e
    I came from time trials (2 seasons competing in NASA's TT series), and now im a rookie racer. I think i have the experience to say something about both. And im speaking rather loosely from my experience, so, minus the semantics, and minus the online dictionaries.

    Having done 2 seasons of TT, i can tell you first hand that yes, time trials is a race against time, but its not real racing. Since youre not a racer, there is no way youre going to understand what im saying. If you ever have the opportunity to get into racing, you will know what im talking about. Time trials, time attacks, autox...they dont compare to racing. Anyone who thinks those are the same are in for a serious wake-up call if they ever do get into racing.
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  5. #25
    The Real Captain Slow Red_5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bueller View Post
    I came from time trials (2 seasons competing in NASA's TT series), and now im a rookie racer. I think i have the experience to say something about both. And im speaking rather loosely from my experience, so, minus the semantics, and minus the online dictionaries.

    Having done 2 seasons of TT, i can tell you first hand that yes, time trials is a race against time, but its not real racing. Since youre not a racer, there is no way youre going to understand what im saying. If you ever have the opportunity to get into racing, you will know what im talking about. Time trials, time attacks, autox...they dont compare to racing. Anyone who thinks those are the same are in for a serious wake-up call if they ever do get into racing.
    Really?
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/semantics

    e
    Last edited by Red_5; 05-16-2009 at 10:38 PM.

  6. #26
    LongWinded National Champ Bueller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red_5 View Post
    Really? I'm starting to think you should become a little friendlier with the online dictionary and the meaning of the word semantics.
    I've never said in my ignorance and lack experience that w2w racing and time attacks . . . are the same. In fact all I've done is argued semantics. Guess what, a guy on a bicycle can race a guy in a car and it's still a race. Is it the same as F1? No, but they are still racing even if they aren't next to each other while it's happening and they're using a clock to give find the results. They are all forms of racing, not identical sure, but racing non the less.
    For your reading pleasure:
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/semantics
    I'm not sure I'm the one who needs to "open my mind", it's wide open. And dude, you need to relax.

    e
    Not sure why youre telling me to relax. I said i was speaking rather loosely. I even used 2 to highlight my intro in my preceding post to illustrate it. Youre taking my post way out of context. If 2 are not enough for you to recognize that im being casual, then youre clearly taking this way too seriously.
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    The Real Captain Slow Red_5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bueller View Post
    Not sure why youre telling me to relax. I said i was speaking rather loosely. I even used 2 to highlight my intro in my preceding post to illustrate it. Youre taking my post way out of context. If 2 are not enough for you to recognize that im being casual, then youre clearly taking this way too seriously.
    You're too fast with your response because I like my edited version better.
    It was your second paragraph, the one with 0 , that I found to be a tad condescending. But then I remembered my earlier post of
    I see where people are coming from and I'm not a w2w racer yet, although I would like to think I'm on the road to it, this really is just debating semantics. If it's truly more than that, I'll shut up because I don't care enough.

    e

    That's why I edited my post before I saw your response.

    e

  8. #28
    LongWinded National Champ Bueller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red_5 View Post
    You're too fast with your response because I like my edited version better.
    It was your second paragraph, the one with 0 , that I found to be a tad condescending. But then I remembered my earlier post of
    I see where people are coming from and I'm not a w2w racer yet, although I would like to think I'm on the road to it, this really is just debating semantics. If it's truly more than that, I'll shut up because I don't care enough.

    e

    That's why I edited my post before I saw your response.

    e
    Well, im sorry you felt that i was being condescending. If you knew me you would know that the last thing i am is pretentious. I never intended to sound condescending. I understand though, because online sometimes you cant read between the lines. Like most people i occasionally like to chat online within varying types of topics. So i was just killing some time typing casually. Next time, dont get your panties all tied up in a bunch. <---There is my smiley face to let you know im not being all serious.
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  9. #29
    The Real Captain Slow Red_5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bueller View Post
    Next time, dont get your panties all tied up in a bunch. <---There is my smiley face to let you know im not being all serious.
    Just because I drive a Miata doesn't mean I want you thinking about my underwear.

    e

  10. #30
    Clem Life Clem Kevin's Avatar
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    time trials and time attack are a form of motorsport. motorsport is racing

    why arent they racing? i think my spidey senses feel a bit of elitism here.

  11. #31
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    i agree, they should all be considered racing whether its against other cars in a w2w race or against the clock.
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    Master of Disaster SteveLevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenchi View Post
    time trial = qualifying?
    Exactly

    And to me when I say "racing" I mean "participating in a race" where a race has all the elements of a road race. Part of that includes laying down multiple, consecutive good laps while others are trying to get you (and you getting by them).

    Steve

  13. #33
    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif Chris@Xtremespeed's Avatar
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    For those who say that W2W is the only form of "true" racing.
    Would that make tandem drifting like we see in FD or D1GP real racing?
    They are W2W are they not? And I would venture to say that most "racers" here would not classify that as racing.

    Isn't it the experience that makes a race a race? Whether it be two kids racing their bikes to the end of the block, or a full-blown ALMS or GRAND AM race. Really, if it's point A to point B then it's a race. I think what may be more relevant to you track HQ guys is the level of skill needed for all these types of racing. Time trials and time attack offer racing to the masses. It's still racing non-the less; it's just a different form of racing. Qualifying is still racing too. You're just racing for another purpose. You can race against yourself, someone else or the clock, it's still racing. To me it's a frame of mind. If you're in it to win, you're racing! My .02 on the matter...

  14. #34
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    I see your point Chris. It does make sense that it comes down to your frame of mind when driving. Racing against the clock does make sense in that way. I just look at it like I think the sanctining bodies do in the us. For example ,to run time trial, or time attack, its open to the masses. On the same note to "RACE" in say PT, honda challenge, or any other race group, you need to take a class/race school. I took the driving concepts racing/competition license school in order to get my "RACE" license. I think this is where most people see the difference. That being said I still chose to run time attack this year
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    LongWinded National Champ Bueller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clem Kevin View Post
    time trials and time attack are a form of motorsport. motorsport is racing

    why arent they racing? i think my spidey senses feel a bit of elitism here.
    Elitism? You can bet your butt that we are the most elite of the elite. Some people live and die by that pyramid. I have earned my little spot at the top of that pyramid. I dont want some wannabe walking in here thinking he can sit next to me in the cafeteria while i nibble on my scrumptious cookies sipping on my tea.
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  16. #36
    Senior Member plastique999's Avatar
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    I don't think TT's is racing at all....you're just being timed.
    As others mentioned, TT = qualifying before the Real race.
    All you have to do is put down one fast lap.

    W2W has so many more variables and factors compared to TT. Other racers are all around you, making it much more complex. The other key factor is consistency (as Steve said). Just like in golf, or any other sport, you have to be consistent to win.
    One fast lap in a w2w race doesn't mean crap if you end up losing time in a future lap where you spin, or miss an apex....no second chances if the other racer takes advantage of your mistake.
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    This thread is pretentious and irrelevant. Racing is a speed contest. It's always against an opponent; it's irrelevant if the objective is measured by a checkered or a clock.

    There's no question that there are different levels of competition. An F1 driver could easily take the same "racing" pyramid graphic (posted earlier) and place Formula 1 solely at the top of it. A BTCC driver might do the same thing because we (in grassroots motorsport) are not doing enough to earn (or defend) a pass. But I would expect that many of the pros would be more humble about it than some of you. Simply because the competition isn't up to your standards doesn't make the wins (or losses) any less real for the people making the sacrifices to be there. It's out of line to diminish the hardship and perseverance by arbitrarily labeling it as anything less.

    We all make sacrifices in our lives to get behind the wheel and compete at a level we can afford. It's what brings us altogether. I know many successful w2w racers who had to turn to autocrossing after having kids. That's life. Other forms of racing might not be my thing, but who the hell am I to tell them it's not racing. If an hour doesn't go by that you're not thinking about driving faster than anyone else, you're a racer.

    I expect this quote will resonate with all of you:

    "A lot of people go through life doing things badly. Racing's important to men who do it well. When you're racing, it's life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting." -- Steve McQueen in Le Mans

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bueller View Post
    Elitism? You can bet your butt that we are the most elite of the elite. Some people live and die by that pyramid. I have earned my little spot at the top of that pyramid. I dont want some wannabe walking in here thinking he can sit next to me in the cafeteria while i nibble on my scrumptious cookies sipping on my tea.

    Ill make sure there will be a soap box in the cafeteria for you.

  19. #39
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    I think we need a second poll:

    If you voted for "Time Trials is Racing," have you ever run a sanctioned wheel-to-wheel race?

    1. Yes
    2. No

    I bet a dollar to a dog turd that "No" will be 90%+.
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  20. #40
    Chest hair required Olitho's Avatar
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    So what is the first thing everyone thinks of when someones says "I was watching a car race." Do you think of an HPDE, drifting, a time trial, time attack or a wheel to wheel race with a bunch of cars on track jockeying for position to cross the finish line first? The answer to that question is indicative of the classic definition.

    Now what if we are talking about the land speed records? The organization running that around these parts is called SCTA, Southern California Timing Association. That is probably the oldest organization running such an event. It is not called SCRA.

    I have heard rallies called rally racing. There is drag racing as you do run against another car. The Dakar is called a rally, but the Baja 1000 is called a race. Hillclimbs are called races I think, but are really a time attack. Put two cars on the starting line and it is truly a race that would be gnarly. If you are racing on the street against another car you get busted for street racing. If you are going excessively fast by yourself it is called exhibition of speed or reckless driving. I could go on....

    With that said above you can form your own opinion and I am sure everyone has one already, but I will go on to say I think a time trial/time attack is a speed sport and/or a race against the clock. I would call it racing, it just is not in the classic sense which takes us all back to my first paragraph.
    Last edited by Olitho; 05-18-2009 at 09:22 AM.
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