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Thread: Open Passing Track Day Run Groups - Bad Idea or Good?

  1. #41
    The Real Captain Slow Red_5's Avatar
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    I'm pretty sure there's only one n in "whiner." I keep reading it as "winner" and that's not the going to send the right message.
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    Master of Disaster SteveLevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red_5 View Post
    I'm pretty sure there's only one n in "whiner." I keep reading it as "winner" and that's not the going to send the right message.
    Winners whine but they don't spin out. (bonus for those that remember the reference)

    Steve
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kam View Post
    Years ago, I made a pass on a silver Miata down the straight. Was mid-corner chasing a caddy when I started turning into the apex.
    This is the video of that pass (first 10-15s):
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ig_6kzz63zY
    Great driving on the part of the Miata driver...
    The Miata driver broke no rules as the only rule may have been "no point by required".

    Perhaps the open passing rules could include passing rules just like in various race groups.
    How much overlap required to establish ownership of a corner?

    Seems racing has more rules than an open passing DE?

    If there is a problem corner then state no passing in only that corner?

    We were in the New Years day open passing DE group with the Alfa club at Laguna and it was great fun!!!
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    I've been in **** show groups with both high inter, inter open passing, and advanced open passing. The one advantage that you have in the open passing groups is that there is no misconception of control. The most dangerous things I've experienced from the driver seat and the passenger seat on track are situations in which some one thinks they have control. 90% of the drivers in the open groups have learned to assume nothing and be ready for anything. Anecdotally, high inter point by (sv black) is the most dangerous group I've been in.

  5. #45
    Kam
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    Quote Originally Posted by passmenow View Post
    Great driving on the part of the Miata driver...
    The Miata driver broke no rules as the only rule may have been "no point by required".
    Just to make sure it's clear, my post wasn't to call out the miata driver. This was the red group and ***I*** should have been keeping tabs on where the miata was. His pass helped me realize that I should be paying more attention.

    Red Group driver's meetings have always had the "Treat it like a race group -- with that said, it's not a race group."

    Either way, this debate has two sides that each have logical and realistic points:
    Side A - It's a HPDE and people shouldn't be making risky passes
    Side B - Open Passing / Advanced groups should be fully aware and capable of driving in "race-like conditions"
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  6. #46
    likes to left foot brake. passmenow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kam View Post
    "Treat it like a race group -- with that said, it's not a race group."
    I think this event promoter's instruction is vague as racing rules or passing rules are not standardized.

    Kam your video does shows that perhaps the drivers in that video were not passing using the same rules.
    From the video the Miata driver appeared aggressive like a race group driver on the last lap of a race.

    This adds to the confusion...
    Some DE only drivers may have never raced so they are not familiar with any racing rules.
    The drivers with race experience know racing rules but since we all race with different clubs these racing rules will have no continuity.

    An event promoter should have defined racing or passing rules for their open passing sessions.
    Then tell us in the drivers meeting so we can all be held accountable to same racing/passing rules in open passing.

    Maybe open passing on straights but passing in turns only with a point by?
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    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
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    You must watch some really slow races

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    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kam View Post
    Years ago, I made a pass on a silver Miata down the straight. Was mid-corner chasing a caddy when I started turning into the apex. Wouldn't you know, that Miata showed up.
    It caught me off guard and gave me an immediate lesson on open passing groups. Just because you passed a car, doesn't mean it's no longer there.

    This is the video of that pass (first 10-15s):
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ig_6kzz63zY
    I saw "Miata", and immediately cringed.....yeap, that's someone we all know here........

    btw. that Caddy was a mess.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by passmenow View Post
    From the video the Miata driver appeared aggressive like a race group driver on the last lap of a race.
    The Miata driver was doing exactly what Carl was suggesting which is boils down to "getting on with the program and learn how to pass".

  10. #50
    Kam
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    Quote Originally Posted by passmenow View Post
    I think this event promoter's instruction is vague as racing rules or passing rules are not standardized.
    For red group, it's as true to "open passing" as you can get, but with the "don't steal apexes" premise. 95% of the people follow this rule.

    Some DE only drivers may have never raced so they are not familiar with any racing rules.
    ...
    An event promoter should have defined racing or passing rules for their open passing sessions.
    Then tell us in the drivers meeting so we can all be held accountable to same racing/passing rules in open passing.
    SV is pretty good about it and review those rules in driver's meetings, as well as post-session downloads.


    Quote Originally Posted by bellwilliam View Post
    I saw "Miata", and immediately cringed.....yeap, that's someone we all know here........

    btw. that Caddy was a mess.....
    If I recall correctly, the Miata driver mentioned he was working with the Caddy driver on "race-like" conditions... close passing, keeping head on a swivel, etc.

    I have other videos of the caddy drivers struggling to find apexes.
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  11. #51
    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
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    I think the miata in the video at turn 1 is a textbook example of a "stolen apex". Camera car has turned in, the window is closing, then "boom" miata. Not good for red unless you know the guy.
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    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif Blackbird's Avatar
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    But would he still turn in if his awareness level was higher?
    Kam just answered that question with a "no" a few posts ago.

  13. #53
    The Real Captain Slow Red_5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bellwilliam View Post
    I saw "Miata", and immediately cringed.....yeap, that's someone we all know here........

    btw. that Caddy was a mess.....
    Yeah, I thought that car looked familiar.
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  14. #54
    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackbird View Post
    But would he still turn in if his awareness level was higher?
    Kam just answered that question with a "no" a few posts ago.
    Of course not, but I'm making my point that there's a big difference between a stolen apex which might not be a good idea for HPDE open passing and a block pass which is fine.
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    I know what Rob is trying to say and I agree with him to a degree. The problem is one man's block pass is another man's stolen apex.

  16. #56
    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatbillybob View Post
    I know what Rob is trying to say and I agree with him to a degree. The problem is one man's block pass is another man's stolen apex.
    Well, we just need to define these terms better that we're throwing around willynilly.

    In the video at 1:10 you can see a poorly executed block pass that starts to turn into a stolen apex. If he didn't hesitate and got his nose ahead by the 1.5-2 marker, that would be a perfect block pass. But he waited too long so the other guy might not have seen him until after turnin. So lower marks for that.

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    Buy a Vette. Guaranteed to be faster than the field. Never have to worry about being passed. Half the battle won already. Honk if others won't get out of the way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertR1 View Post
    Buy a Vette. Guaranteed to be faster than the field. Never have to worry about being passed. Half the battle won already. Honk if others won't get out of the way.
    100% agree
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kam View Post
    Just to make sure it's clear, my post wasn't to call out the miata driver. This was the red group and ***I*** should have been keeping tabs on where the miata was. His pass helped me realize that I should be paying more attention.

    Red Group driver's meetings have always had the "Treat it like a race group -- with that said, it's not a race group."

    Either way, this debate has two sides that each have logical and realistic points:
    Side A - It's a HPDE and people shouldn't be making risky passes
    Side B - Open Passing / Advanced groups should be fully aware and capable of driving in "race-like conditions"
    Point 1 and 2 are not contradictory. I think they both make sense.
    Advance group is "race like condition" which is why there is one but it's still a HPDE.
    Everyone should be there for fun and be careful with passing. We go there not for lap times cuz it's not a qualifying lap. It doesn't matter if one drives 2:00 or 2:05. Especially in SoCal, lap times seem to be the only important thing in Track days.

    I think lap time is for ourselves so that drivers could know where the problem is.
    Some guys are having fun with their stock cars with PSS and 400hp; some are enjoying Spec miata with slicks. It doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is track days are for fun not race.

    Every time I try to register for a track day, I always hesitate to be in advance cuz I feel like some advance drivers are always trying to kill me LOL. On the other hand, I enjoy some chasing laps with some nice drivers in advance. I always love to chase some fast Miatas. I know they are not fast in straight line and I'd just slow down for a bit then wait for corners.
    Last edited by jqsti2015; 04-06-2017 at 05:06 AM.
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    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif Blackbird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertR1 View Post
    Buy a Vette. Guaranteed to be faster than the field. Never have to worry about being passed. Half the battle won already. Honk if others won't get out of the way.
    You might run into some Miatas that will follow you to closely...

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