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Thread: NASA to Announce New Partnership & Racing Series @ PRI

  1. #41
    Master of Disaster SteveLevin's Avatar
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    Actually, I don't think the differential was all that much between the Renault and the Ford 1.9 (what is now called the Gen2 car). The switch at that time was because of concerns that Renault (being gone) engines were hard to come by, and, at the time, I understand Ford subsidized much of the development cost of the switchover. In fact, in order to force everyone to convert (and to avoid the situation of people having different cars for different tracks), I believe SCCA, after the 3 year crossover period, would not allow Renault-engined cars to compete in any class (which became a real issue for some folks).

    The Gen2 cars use a 5 speed transaxle (which carries over to the Gen3), although, in reality, 5th is really only useful at high speeds in the Gen2. Thunderhill has a handful of folks under the right conditions that use it for a moment on the front straight, but many top drivers hold 4th for the hot second that you get to 6000rpm. But running Buttonwillow CCW through the dogleg, Cal Speedway/Willow Springs/Reno-Fernley/Portland without the chicane you use it. With the Gen3 engine, which has less torque and is higher revving, you will use both 2nd a bit and 5th a lot more.

    And with the Gen3 I have not heard of any plans to 'outlaw' the Gen2 cars, although after 2018 they will not be classified separately. The Gen3 cars are lighter, more powerful...there's no track where there would be an advantage to running a Gen2 over a Gen3 in a unified class, as it looks that the Gen3 will be 3-5 seconds a lap quicker than the Gen2.

    Steve

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    Speed isn't everything, though it sure helps. The w2w SRF battles are epic. Check out the last couple of SRF runoff races if in doubt. The SRF pilots are top notch racers. If you do well in the SRF class it really means something. The SRF Gen 3 will be a major step forward for the SRF class. Somehow a Pinto motor at 6000 rpm full chat just doesn't cut it for a race car.
    Last edited by markn; 12-11-2014 at 11:31 PM.
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  3. #43
    Master of Disaster SteveLevin's Avatar
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    Something else to keep in mind for SRF is the support network of CSR (the dealers). There will be at least one CSR at pretty much every race weekend with a trailer full of spares. So you don't have to stockpile a ton of spares. It's amazing how many cars get wrapped up in an incident that bends rocker arms, ruins radiators, whatnot, and that car is ready to go the next day with major parts sourced off the CSR trailer...

    Steve

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    Faster than Oli jimt's Avatar
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    Ok, who is going to buy a $65K DP car? I'll tell you who, guys you don't want to be door to door with. This is dead out of the gate. If they switched the bodies to fiberglass, did a 4 speed manual, and opened up the chassis/body build to other builders, did competitive bids, they could probably do this car for $35,000.
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    Spec Backhoe Champion redtopz's Avatar
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    Why can't SRF's have a crossover group with nasa like SM and SE30?

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    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif Blackbird's Avatar
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    Track HQ guys are funny.
    $45-50K for a spec ND sounds like a good deal for a new production based racecar (with all the compromises made for production) which will have less power, regular manual trans, will be at least 600 Lbs heavier and has no aero.
    Add $20K for a proper built mid engine single seater tube frame racecar with more power (and a sealed engine, thank you), a racing 6 speed sequential gearbox, prototype style bodywork with aero, and it becomes a bad deal which should have never even been made...

    This thing is going to run circles around SRFs...

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    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif emilio700's Avatar
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    $65k is cheap for a fully sorted, ready to race car. No one wants to admit what they actually spent developing their car over the years. Not to be confused with what it's worth or what it would cost to replicate knowing what they now know.
    On paper this car should be pretty quick. I'd venture to guess 1:51 or so BW13CW
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    Master of Disaster SteveLevin's Avatar
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    So six seconds slower than a Formula Mazda at 3+ times the price.

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    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
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    I found some info on the sequential transaxle it's likely to use. $10,000 each. Could be worse I guess.

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    Member Steve35's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveLevin View Post
    I'm thinking the one on the right is a scale model of an old-style Can-Am car? Wasn't someonefloating around a spec series of v8-powered McLaren lookalikes a while back?

    Steve
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    BMW Master bawareca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
    No one wants to admit what they actually spent developing their car over the years.
    Rule #1,did you forget

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    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveLevin View Post
    So six seconds slower than a Formula Mazda at 3+ times the price.
    Tough to put a price on not deflecting other cars with your helmet
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveLevin View Post
    So six seconds slower than a Formula Mazda at 3+ times the price.
    Using that scale, no one should even consider running SM, yet somehow it's the most popular spec class.
    Also, 3x the price?
    Here's a good used one, 2005 with winning history, some spares, $60K -
    05 PFM for sale - ApexSpeed

  14. #54
    Master of Disaster SteveLevin's Avatar
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    So I gave this some thought. I'm going to derail the thread one last time and leave it at that.

    Everyone wants race cars for different reasons, and preferences. Some want to race a Ferrari because they've dreamed of that. For others, pure lap speed. Others, competition. Plus a ton of other reasons.

    You have to do what you can afford, and what makes you happy. I've made no bones that I have a modest budget, and, for example, part of my budget has to include both keeping my wife comfortable at the track, as well as keeping her feeling relatively okay with my continuing to race. And these days, my primary job is taking care of my family financially.

    For me, a key point is that I have to believe my car is good enough to win. Me, I may not be good enough to win (and yes, I know that if I got off my fat rear end so I wasn't racing close to 100 pounds over minimum weight, I'd obviously be quicker), but dangit, I want to know I'm getting beaten by better/more committed drivers and not their pocketbook. I feel that SRF provides that, as well as good racing up and down the field, no matter how fast or slow you are.

    but sure, I also wanted an open-cockpit car. I don't worry too much about other cars hitting my helmet -- I have a very hard head and the geometry of the frame make it unlikely to happen -- I worry more about fire.

    As an old boss taught me... "what's the problem you are trying to solve?" the answer to that tells you what the right race car is.

    Steve
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    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif emilio700's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimt View Post
    Ok, who is going to buy a $65K DP car? I'll tell you who, guys you don't want to be door to door with. This is dead out of the gate. If they switched the bodies to fiberglass, did a 4 speed manual, and opened up the chassis/body build to other builders, did competitive bids, they could probably do this car for $35,000.
    You're probably right. The thing is while most of us start with a $10-25k donor or initial investment in our cars, we nick and dime our way past $65k over the course of several years. That doesn't mean we'll all willing or necessarily able to cut that $65k check. Generally the majority of the guys that can, yeah, I have no interest in running door to door with either. Well, maybe William.

    edit: ~$30k is the sweet spot. Low enough for the average club racer to swing. High enough to support basic structural, design and safety targets. The one left out is speed but as we have seen with SRF and SM, speed in and of itself does not guarantee great racing from the drivers perspective. Field size and parity does. Speed brings rich guys that can't drive.. Al parity jokes aside, SM still does a great job of guaranteeing you will have somebody on your door after the 2nd lap. That guy might have a cheater motor but he'll be racing you.
    Last edited by emilio700; 12-12-2014 at 01:48 PM.
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    Master of Disaster SteveLevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackbird View Post
    Using that scale, no one should even consider running SM, yet somehow it's the most popular spec class.
    Also, 3x the price?
    Here's a good used one, 2005 with winning history, some spares, $60K -
    05 PFM for sale - ApexSpeed
    That's a Pro Mazda. Much much faster. I was talking about a Formula Mazda, like Richard had.
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    The Real Captain Slow Red_5's Avatar
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    Lot's of good points here. To Moti, I think $60K sounds a like a lot more than $45K and the ND MX-5 Cup car is supposed to be a pro racing series and the NP is supposed to be aimed at club racers.

    Another thing I find interesting about this is the engine chosen, the 2.0 liter MZR out of the outgoing NC Miata. Everyone told me the engine wasn't worth the effort to install in an NA/NB Miata yet here it is in a $60K purpose built race car.
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    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif Blackbird's Avatar
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    For the amount of work that it take to install the MZR in the NA / NB chassis, there are better choices, that's all.
    The reasoning behind installing it as the spec engine in a racing series has nothing to do with any thing related to your particular case.

  19. #59
    The Real Captain Slow Red_5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackbird View Post
    For the amount of work that it take to install the MZR in the NA / NB chassis, there are better choices, that's all.
    The reasoning behind installing it as the spec engine in a racing series has nothing to do with any thing related to your particular case.
    I'll disagree with you. If the engine isn't worth installing in a Miata, why would it be worth installing in a $60K race car. Why not use one of the other choices? If the MZR is good enough for this purpose and to power some open wheel cars, surely it must be good enough for a Miata. If only someone would make a kit to make it easier . . . One of the reasons I wanted to do the swap was because of how many cheap engines are out there. Once you do the swap, there are tons of 2.0, 2.3 and 2.5s that will drop right in. Most are pretty cheap and have forged cranks and rods.
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    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif Blackbird's Avatar
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    Because K24.

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