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Thread: The incident or how to get rid of the compition. What's your take?

  1. #21
    Spec Backhoe Champion redtopz's Avatar
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    I agree with William, I would have done what Gian did. He was riding the edge of the track at the door of a competitor who swerved right and spun himself out. If I'm Gian then I would keep my position on the edge of the track. I think it's clear that the other car was not aware of Gian's position and that's why he swerved right to set himself up for a better entry into buttonhook. It's very difficult to see anyone behind you to the right at the start of the race in that turn as your eyes are looking up to the left. The main mistake in my eyes was the other car swerving right assuming nobody was there. That was a bad assumption.
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    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    I would rule 70/30 in favor of Gian. But ultimately it is a racing incident. Due to T1 madness

    Koo's swerving right is the issue. Sudden movement is never a good thing in first corner. If everyone moves slowly, it would just be light contact. No harm, no foul.

    Sometime common sense is more important than what the rule says: only have to give 3/4 car width. It is one thing to slowly squeeze a competitor off track (3/4 width). It is another to move abruptly.
    Last edited by bellwilliam; 04-25-2017 at 08:23 PM.
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    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redtopz View Post
    It's very difficult to see anyone behind you to the right at the start of the race in that turn as your eyes are looking up to the left. The main mistake in my eyes was the other car swerving right assuming nobody was there. That was a bad assumption.
    We have a rule in SuperMiata. If you lost track of the car fighting you. You have to leave room at apex and/or at track out.
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    Chest hair required Olitho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bellwilliam View Post
    We have a rule in SuperMiata. If you lost track of the car fighting you. You have to leave room at apex and/or at track out.
    That is good common sense and it is what I do.
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    Chest hair required Olitho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redtopz View Post
    I think it's clear that the other car was not aware of Gian's position and that's why he swerved right to set himself up for a better entry into buttonhook.
    Agreed.
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    The Real Captain Slow Red_5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olitho View Post
    That whole 3/4 rule this is a bunch of BS. I keep waiting for them to change that. No other race sanctioning body in the world does that. I don't get it now and I never did. I always leave room for the other car. I never intentionally give them just 3/4s.
    But it is the rule none the less and based on that rule I think Gian has more blame than Chuck. I'm also not a fan of the 3/4 rule and always at least tried to give full car width but I can think of a couple of times I wasn't able to make that happen. Fortunately the other drivers didn't push the issue and we didn't have contact.
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    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red_5 View Post
    But it is the rule none the less and based on that rule I think Gian has more blame than Chuck. I'm also not a fan of the 3/4 rule and always at least tried to give full car width but I can think of a couple of times I wasn't able to make that happen. Fortunately the other drivers didn't push the issue and we didn't have contact.
    3/4 width rule or not. In Supermiata race meeting have been said over and over again: whether you have the right to be there or not. If you can avoid contact, you HAVE to try. Otherwise you are still at fault. Right to a line do not give one right to hit another car, contact avoidance should always come first before any rule.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olitho View Post
    That whole 3/4 rule this is a bunch of BS. I keep waiting for them to change that. No other race sanctioning body in the world does that. I don't get it now and I never did.
    GTS changed it - it's car width plus 6" for GTS-on-GTS. Even though 99.9% of passes are GTS-on-non-GTS but whatev.

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    The Real Captain Slow Red_5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bellwilliam View Post
    3/4 width rule or not. In Supermiata race meeting have been said over and over again: whether you have the right to be there or not. If you can avoid contact, you HAVE to try. Otherwise you are still at fault. Right to a line do not give one right to hit another car, contact avoidance should always come first before any rule.
    I agree, racers should try to avoid contact but this was in NASA where they have the 3/4 rule.

    I just watched both videos for the first time on my computer - had only watched on my phone before - and it has somewhat changed my impression. Watching it full screen on the computer it looks like Gian had a full car width to work with and was further forward than I originally thought. It, to me at least, looks like they then turn into each other. It looks like Gian is correcting for coming back on track and Chuck just abruptly moves over. It looks more purely like a racing incident now with more equal blame.
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    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red_5 View Post
    I agree, racers should try to avoid contact but this was in NASA where they have the 3/4 rule.
    my point is that 3/4 rule or not (even with SPM's 1 car width rule), One should never turn down on a competitor abruptly, regardless you are in the right or wrong. You can squeeze him slowly, forcing Gian to drop 2 wheels in dirt (1/4), but turning abruptly always ends badly (slow squeezing a competitor at most ends with a donut, no biggie) - you can't expect Gian to react fast enough to avoid contact. He is an RX7 driver after all, probably lost all his hearing early in his racing career.
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    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
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    Also the 3/4 rule is a disaster if you have a splitter.
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    My .02 cents
    1: The driver of the car who spun should not of been there in the first place. When the car peels off into pit lane like in the video, you are all supposed to move forward to fill position, not criss cross positions. He clearly went to the inside position which is a no no.
    2: I would of done what the OP did. It shouldn't be considered his fault at all. The spinning car should have given him more room. It's the freaking start of the race, someone is always there.
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  13. #33
    Chest hair required Olitho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plavan View Post
    My .02 cents
    1: The driver of the car who spun should not of been there in the first place. When the car peels off into pit lane like in the video, you are all supposed to move forward to fill position, not criss cross positions. He clearly went to the inside position which is a no no.
    This is a great discussion piece - What to do when a car leaves the race start formation.

    For as many races I have under my belt I have not had this happen to me much, but when it does I am never quite sure what is proper and I can't remember reading about it in any rule book.

    Please elaborate on your thoughts on this topic and cite sources if you have them.
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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olitho View Post
    This is a great discussion piece - What to do when a car leaves the race start formation.

    For as many races I have under my belt I have not had this happen to me much, but when it does I am never quite sure what is proper and I can't remember reading about it in any rule book.

    Please elaborate on your thoughts on this topic and cite sources if you have them.
    I just remember being taught that. In vintage racing it happens alot (Cars breaking, or something is wrong so they dive into the pit). The Organizations don't want everyone zig zagging spots right before the start. You are supposed to stay in your lane, stay in "Formation".
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  15. #35
    Senior Member 48yota's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olitho View Post
    This is a great discussion piece - What to do when a car leaves the race start formation.

    For as many races I have under my belt I have not had this happen to me much, but when it does I am never quite sure what is proper and I can't remember reading about it in any rule book.

    Please elaborate on your thoughts on this topic and cite sources if you have them.
    Oli, what we do at the Alfa Club in a situation like this, however it is rare, if a car pulls out of line when behind the pace car we move up into the correct spot, I see that the two cars moved into the correct spot based on position(cant see behind). If the pace car has pulled off leaving the pace to the pole setter all cars stay in the orig spot until the green.
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  16. #36
    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
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    I believe NASA has no rule. I think you can either hold position or flip flip into correct positions, and I doubt sliding the column forward would get you much of a protest either.

  17. #37
    Senior Member 48yota's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robburgoon View Post
    I believe NASA has no rule. I think you can either hold position or flip flip into correct positions, and I doubt sliding the column forward would get you much of a protest either.
    NASA has very lax and querky rules that get people in all kinds of trouble. Their rule book should be this, When on the track "let the finger pointing begin"
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  18. #38
    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 48yota View Post
    NASA has very lax and querky rules that get people in all kinds of trouble. Their rule book should be this, When on the track "let the finger pointing begin"
    Are we really gonna have comments about lax rules coming from the "no, you don't need door bars to wheel to wheel race" Alfa Club?

  19. #39
    Senior Member fatbillybob's Avatar
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    I have never seen a rule for lost cars on the warmup lap. I always err on the side of safety. I don't think the race director would think kindly to everyone criss crossing to move up a space plus it is confusing especially when everyone is tire warming and there is little time especially midpack back before the green is thrown. I bet the rule would be keep your position as designated by the splitter. Even in F1 there is no reshuffle if a car does not make the grid on the warmup lap.

    The other thing is I'm already developing a strategy for where to go as the green flag approaches based on surround car positions. No race I have ever been in has had perfect row by row double file start. That mismatch in starting positions give me clues to where I may 1st try to go. The last thing I need is a break in concentration for a hasty reshuffle.
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  20. #40
    Senior Member 48yota's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robburgoon View Post
    Are we really gonna have comments about lax rules coming from the "no, you don't need door bars to wheel to wheel race" Alfa Club?
    Been a while since you have raced with Alfa. Since 2011 we require full 6pt at minimum with door intrusion and cross bracing for rollover. Instituted in 2016 fully enforced in 2017 we require head and neck restraint and no more doughnuts.
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