View Poll Results: If you think Time Trials are Racing, have you ever Raced W2W?

Voters
21. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    10 47.62%
  • No

    11 52.38%
+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 44

Thread: If you think Time Trials are Racing, have you ever Raced W2W?

  1. #21
    CRG-Rotax Warrior Moving Chicane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    SoCal.
    Posts
    31
    Liked
    0 times

    Default

    I've got to agree to disagree.

    Let's not even talk price of entry (car cost vs. kart cost), but:
    Gas - 5.5 gallons of gas/oil mix for Rotax is about $50. Easily a day on that.
    Tires - $210 for 4 slicks mounted.
    Gearing - $25 per gear (maybe 3-6 gears needed for SoCal.)
    Entry fees - $10/$25 (Willow) to $75 (Jim Hall) for a full day
    Brake pads - $50 per corner (max of three corners)
    Personal equipment - The same as in cars
    Clutch pack with labour - about $260
    Re-Build on top end of motor - $800
    Full Motor - ~$3500 (never did this myself yet so not sure of accuracy)

    So what is it that costs more about karting in your experiences than driving the car? I see few items that are cheaper (maybe gas once you factor in driving to/from the track), a couple that are the same (personal equipment, maybe entry fees), and lots that are more $$$ (tires anyone?)....

    Already Gone.

  2. #22
    Chest hair required Olitho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    5,088
    Liked
    2165 times

    Default

    The comment about karting costing as much as car racing was rhetorical, but I must point out a few things you reference:
    • Rebuilding kart top ends is about $300. That must be done often.
    • New kart engines, you reference a rebuilt one at $3500. They don't last long either. A 405 HP Z06 crate engine brand new, $3,800. They can last three seasons of full racing.
    • Kart fuel and oil is crazy expensive. They suck it up.
    • Karts eat chains, sprockets and clutches.
    • New plugs all the time to be competitive.

    I am not saying karting is more expensive than racing a Z06, but it is crazy expensive for a 15 year old and pound for pound about four times the price of racing my car.

    Kristjan's race this past weekend cost $450 per lap.

    To the right of The Sheriff. Isn't everyone?

  3. #23
    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    La Verne, California, United States
    Posts
    7,644
    Liked
    2282 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Olitho View Post
    Kristjan's race this past weekend cost $450 per lap.



    this are pictures I took during one of AAA Speedway events last year. I drove out to the karting track to check it out. I did NOT see a SINGLE pick up truck or a van carrying a kart.
    Attached Images      
    Supermiata S1, SuperMiata S2, Supermiata S3
    13 Tesla, ma: no engine !!
    17 GT350 !!
    08 M3 - Carmax warranty !!
    96 NSX
    06 EVO MR
    15 Mini Cooper S

  4. #24
    Professor Chaos thefrush's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Sacramento, CA
    Posts
    1,087
    Liked
    1 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bellwilliam View Post


    this are pictures I took during one of AAA Speedway events last year. I drove out to the karting track to check it out. I did NOT see a SINGLE pick up truck or a van carrying a kart.




    "The crashes people remember, but drivers remember the near misses" -Mario Andretti

  5. #25
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Sunnyvale, CA
    Posts
    278
    Liked
    91 times

    Default

    I'll do you one better. With the talk about clutches and such, I'll assume you're in some sort of KT-based class. I ran a year and a half in a Stock Honda shifter and I recommend that class to anyone who asks about a cheap way to get into karting.

    Original package cost on the kart I still have ('06 Italkart Rapido w/ a blueprinted '99 CR125) was pretty high, but I also had the kart professionally assembled by someone who knew what they were doing (i.e. not me ).

    -Gas is about 7 gallons a race. The shifters drink the stuff pretty bad. $8/gal, plus oil, so figure on about $70 for a practice day and a race.
    -Tires are $200 or so for a new set, and I mount them myself. I have a new set every race, and that's easily one of the biggest costs. The race set gets used for the next practice day, and a fresh set gets bolted up for every qualifying session.
    -Gearing, chains etc: The shifters just don't eat this stuff. I had a TaG before this, and it was $30-40 per chain, and at least a chain every 2 weekends, plus gears, and god forbid you drop a wheel and bend a gear, which then tightens the chain up and bends a crank half. I ran a season and a half, plus a few fun days, and I haven't changed a chain or a gear yet. That's right - the same chain this kart was built with, 3.5 years ago. Huge cost savings over a single-speed or clutch kart there.
    Entry fees - Historically high for Sears Point which is where I used to run. $100-110 for a race, $60 for a full practice day. Can't avoid it, though, and it's the same for every class.
    Brake pads - I think I go through a set of rears every 3-4 races, at a cost of $60 (dual rear caliper). Fronts don't seem to wear...
    Personal equipment - Cars is definitely way pricier. Karting suits are pretty cheap, and the rest of the equipment is all pretty basic stuff. Wrestling shoes, cheap gloves, etc. No $600 HANS, no pricey Nomex suit, no fireproof shoes/gloves. Equipment cost is probably the reason I won't get my SCCA license until next year.
    Clutchpack - Stock CR125. Will outlast the motor several times over.
    Re-builds - This is where the Hondas really shine. Pistons are stupid cheap - I think our last motor bill was under $300, including a piston, hone, fresh tranny fluid, and labor. My builder recommends 8-10 hours on a piston, which is way higher than most other classes - and parts are CHEAP. I just got the motor back a couple months ago from its second piston. It was due for a bottom end, and my builder told me not to even bother - he was tired of pulling apart 2-year old bottom ends that looked absolutely perfect.
    Full motor - My motor cost me $2400 brand new, including professional assembly (blueprinting). It was another $200 or so to have a set of blended power valve plugs installed - one of the very few legal mods in the class.

    We sold the TaG that preceeded this kart for $3k, and ended up doing the entire 2006 season, 7 races, on that budget. That's including $110 a race in entry fees, $200 a race in tires, and $50+ a race in gas and oil. I had one DNF caused by teething issues on a brand-new kart, and beyond that the thing was so reliable it confused me. I would put it in the garage after every event, and then a month later take it out, clean the cobwebs off, pour new gas in on top of the month-old mix, and it would fire right up. I was competitive, too - had a bunch of top 5s and a few podiums. Always in the front third of the pack, and it wasn't a lazy field - one of the guys who used to dice for the front spot was Mark Drennan, who was the SFR SM champ a couple years ago.

    Oli, what class does your son run?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moving Chicane View Post
    I've got to agree to disagree.

    Let's not even talk price of entry (car cost vs. kart cost), but:
    Gas - 5.5 gallons of gas/oil mix for Rotax is about $50. Easily a day on that.
    Tires - $210 for 4 slicks mounted.
    Gearing - $25 per gear (maybe 3-6 gears needed for SoCal.)
    Entry fees - $10/$25 (Willow) to $75 (Jim Hall) for a full day
    Brake pads - $50 per corner (max of three corners)
    Personal equipment - The same as in cars
    Clutch pack with labour - about $260
    Re-Build on top end of motor - $800
    Full Motor - ~$3500 (never did this myself yet so not sure of accuracy)

    So what is it that costs more about karting in your experiences than driving the car? I see few items that are cheaper (maybe gas once you factor in driving to/from the track), a couple that are the same (personal equipment, maybe entry fees), and lots that are more $$$ (tires anyone?)....

    Theseus: '94 Miata, NASA SU/TTU (in progress)
    Rover: '90 Miata, NASA PTE/E3

  6. #26
    Chest hair required Olitho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    5,088
    Liked
    2165 times

    Default

    Kristjan is running HPV-2.
    To the right of The Sheriff. Isn't everyone?

  7. #27
    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    6,853
    Liked
    1429 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Olitho View Post
    Kristjan is running HPV-2.
    I bet the girls his age don't appreciate that...

  8. #28
    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    La Verne, California, United States
    Posts
    7,644
    Liked
    2282 times

    Default

    if you look at all the numbers, karting and tracking are pretty even in cost.

    Savington said in cheapest form of karting, he is doing it at $3k per year, come out to $420 a day.

    Oli said $900 for a weekend. but Oli tows the kart, staying overnite at a hotel. food for 2. so that's pretty close to Savington's number.

    Rob said $900 for a weekend.

    I remember on Miata.net, consensus was ~$500 per track day.

    overall, about the same.
    Supermiata S1, SuperMiata S2, Supermiata S3
    13 Tesla, ma: no engine !!
    17 GT350 !!
    08 M3 - Carmax warranty !!
    96 NSX
    06 EVO MR
    15 Mini Cooper S

  9. #29
    CRG-Rotax Warrior Moving Chicane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    SoCal.
    Posts
    31
    Liked
    0 times

    Default

    Help me out with my ignorance - are 4 new miata tires less than $500, and does everyone use a new set each track day?

    I would love to get GT3 tires for less than $500!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by bellwilliam View Post
    if you look at all the numbers, karting and tracking are pretty even in cost.

    Savington said in cheapest form of karting, he is doing it at $3k per year, come out to $420 a day.

    Oli said $900 for a weekend. but Oli tows the kart, staying overnite at a hotel. food for 2. so that's pretty close to Savington's number.

    Rob said $900 for a weekend.

    I remember on Miata.net, consensus was ~$500 per track day.

    overall, about the same.
    Already Gone.

  10. #30
    The Real Captain Slow Red_5's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Santa Barbara
    Posts
    4,188
    Liked
    704 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Moving Chicane View Post
    Help me out with my ignorance - are 4 new miata tires less than $500, and does everyone use a new set each track day?

    I would love to get GT3 tires for less than $500!!!
    You can get 4 RA1s for about that. I just bought Hankook RS-3s for about that.
    Those prices don't include shipping, tax or mounting.
    No you won't go through one set in a day. If you're racing w2w and really want to win, you might though.

    e

  11. #31
    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    La Verne, California, United States
    Posts
    7,644
    Liked
    2282 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Moving Chicane View Post
    Help me out with my ignorance - are 4 new miata tires less than $500, and does everyone use a new set each track day?

    I would love to get GT3 tires for less than $500!!!
    the cost is not just in tires. have you ever try adding up how much you spent an year just track days alone. My numbers:

    gas money (towing and using race gas on the track) is about $130
    hotel ($80),
    food ($30),
    entry fee and gate fee ($150 to $250 for SV),
    transponder ($20-$30)
    225/45-15 NT01 tires (last me ~4 days) - $150, more as I flat spot them once in a while.
    Carbotech brake pads (4-6 days) - $50

    just these alone is about $700 per track day. even if you decide to go cheap, mild modded Miata, drive to the track, 87 octane gas, no hotel, street tire, el cheapo brake pads. it is still about $370-$470 per track day, see below.

    gas money, driving track car to track - $60
    food ($30),
    entry fee and gate fee ($150 to $250 for SV),
    transponder ($20-$30)
    Azenis tires (last ~6 days) - $70
    cheapo track pads (4-6 days) - $30

    There are a lot more. clutch, bent wheels, suspension, engine maintenanace, 3 years harness life, fluids, transmission, rotors, etc.... so no matter how cheapo you are, $500 a day is the minimum. I am guessing most here are spening close to $1k a day on a more modded and faster car.

    most of us never added up the numbers. you just ruined my day, made me realized I am spening a lot more than my original estimate of $500 per day
    Last edited by bellwilliam; 05-20-2009 at 11:41 PM.
    Supermiata S1, SuperMiata S2, Supermiata S3
    13 Tesla, ma: no engine !!
    17 GT350 !!
    08 M3 - Carmax warranty !!
    96 NSX
    06 EVO MR
    15 Mini Cooper S

  12. #32
    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    6,853
    Liked
    1429 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bellwilliam View Post
    the cost is not just in tires. have you ever try adding up how much you spent an year just track days alone. My numbers:

    gas money (towing and using race gas on the track) is about $130
    hotel ($80),
    food ($30),
    entry fee and gate fee ($150 to $250 for SV),
    transponder ($20-$30)
    225/45-15 NT01 tires (last me ~4 days) - $150, more as I flat spot them once in a while.
    Carbotech brake pads (4-6 days) - $50

    just these alone is about $700 per track day. even if you decide to go cheap, mild modded Miata, drive to the track, 87 octane gas, no hotel, street tire, el cheapo brake pads. it is still about $370-$470 per track day, see below.

    gas money, driving track car to track - $60
    food ($30),
    entry fee and gate fee ($150 to $250 for SV),
    transponder ($20-$30)
    Azenis tires (last ~6 days) - $70
    cheapo track pads (4-6 days) - $30

    There are a lot more. clutch, bent wheels, suspension, engine maintenanace, 3 years harness life, fluids, transmission, rotors, etc.... so no matter how cheapo you are, $500 a day is the minimum. I am guessing most here are spening close to $1k a day on a more modded and faster car.

    most of us never added up the numbers. you just ruined my day, made me realized I am spening a lot more than my original estimate of $500 per day
    You can split your tow gas in half if you do whole weekends.

  13. #33
    CRG-Rotax Warrior Moving Chicane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    SoCal.
    Posts
    31
    Liked
    0 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Red_5 View Post
    You can get 4 RA1s for about that. I just bought Hankook RS-3s for about that.
    Those prices don't include shipping, tax or mounting.
    No you won't go through one set in a day. If you're racing w2w and really want to win, you might though.

    e
    Thanks for the response - this helps. For some reason, I assumed that tires, even in that size, ran at a higher cost. Intersting.....
    Already Gone.

  14. #34
    Chest hair required Olitho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    5,088
    Liked
    2165 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Moving Chicane View Post
    Thanks for the response - this helps. For some reason, I assumed that tires, even in that size, ran at a higher cost. Intersting.....
    My budget for Kristjan that weekend did not even include new tires, but it did include a couple of other items. As someone once said, "Name me one thing in racing that is inexpensive."

    New tires for my T1 Corvette, if I want to have a chance at the podium, cost about $1300. I can run scrubs locally as we have all agreed to do to keep the cost down, but if you go to a national or the Runoffs you better have fresh rubber or expect to run out back.

    I did not mean to suggest the karting matched my racing expenses, which are perhaps at the high-end of the spectrum for Touring club racing. My racing cost more than ITA and SM, but not as much as GT1 and Formula Atlantics I suppose.
    To the right of The Sheriff. Isn't everyone?

  15. #35
    "Shoe"
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    1,797
    Liked
    542 times

    Default

    I've been around a kart or two in my time and as a whole, cars are cheaper than karts. Sure a shifter can be reliable if its not built/stressed ti be competitive. If you are lucky enough to have a spec-honda class in your area that has a good car count and competitive, consider yourself lucky. Shifters teach bad driving habits for most drivers generally speaking.

    If you want to be competitive in most classes, it is expensive. I havnt heard anyone factor in the cost of refilling a nitrogen bottle, specialty tools like chain breakers, tire dismounters, cans and cans of brake clean and WD40 which disappear like beer at a superbowl party, etc... You also need to consider the cost of bent pipes, replacing old pipes, flex joints, driver gears, spark plugs, carberuator rebuilds (frequent), spindles that break in crashes, new axles (tuning or broken), etc...

    I don't remember test days being so cheap. I remember when a $110 test day was a DEAL. Maybe they are cheaper now.

    IMO a spec miata would be a hell of a lot of fun, run it anywhere and have huge classes, cheaper (as a whole), and will teach you more about driving than a kart would.

    A 1.6L crate motor - $1200 and never have to touch it.

    Oli - depending on what you and your son's goals are, cars are less work, stress, etc... And if he wants to try to make a career out of it, get him into cars sooner than later.


    0.02

  16. #36
    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    La Verne, California, United States
    Posts
    7,644
    Liked
    2282 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuntman View Post
    Oli - depending on what you and your son's goals are, cars are less work, stress, etc... And if he wants to try to make a career out of it, get him into cars sooner than later.
    0.02
    but Oli wants to get his son into F1. so karting is a must !! Oli wants to live off his son, at least that's the plan.

    Oli: how did you came up with the name "Kristjan" ? I can't even pronounce it right. is that a popular name ?
    Last edited by bellwilliam; 05-21-2009 at 02:20 PM.
    Supermiata S1, SuperMiata S2, Supermiata S3
    13 Tesla, ma: no engine !!
    17 GT350 !!
    08 M3 - Carmax warranty !!
    96 NSX
    06 EVO MR
    15 Mini Cooper S

  17. #37
    Chest hair required Olitho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    5,088
    Liked
    2165 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bellwilliam View Post
    but Oli wants to get his son into F1. so karting is a must !! Oli wants to live off his son, at least that's the plan.

    Oli: how did you came up with the name "Kristjan" ? I can't even pronounce it right. is that a popular name ?
    Kristjan is the Icelandic spelling of Christian and pronounced the same way.

    I figured I needed to give him a name like that so that when he becomes the F1 champion his name will sound like a F1 driver name. In order to be a F1 champion it is required to have names like Mario, Kiki, Nigel, Alain, Ayrton, Nelson, Mika, Jacques, Niki, Jochen, Emerson, Graham, Nino or Kristjan.

    I am so very sorry you felt compelled to make this post William because now I have to break the news to Billy and Jeff that they will never be F1 racers and they are name disqualified. It does not work to do a name change to Billinito or Jefferonis or something like that. It is required you drive under your birth name.

    I need to call those two now to console them. Their parents and sponsors have been shielding them for years from this harsh truth.
    To the right of The Sheriff. Isn't everyone?

  18. #38
    What's Traction Control? 600RR_Rocket's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    1,326
    Liked
    0 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Olitho View Post
    Kristjan is the Icelandic spelling of Christian and pronounced the same way.

    I figured I needed to give him a name like that so that when he becomes the F1 champion his name will sound like a F1 driver name. In order to be a F1 champion it is required to have names like Mario, Kiki, Nigel, Alain, Ayrton, Nelson, Mika, Jacques, Niki, Jochen, Emerson, Graham, Nino or Kristjan.

    I am so very sorry you felt compelled to make this post William because now I have to break the news to Billy and Jeff that they will never be F1 racers and they are name disqualified. It does not work to do a name change to Billinito or Jefferonis or something like that. It is required you drive under your birth name.

    I need to call those two now to console them. Their parents and sponsors have been shielding them for years from this harsh truth.

  19. #39
    "Shoe"
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    1,797
    Liked
    542 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Olitho View Post
    Kristjan is the Icelandic spelling of Christian and pronounced the same way.

    I figured I needed to give him a name like that so that when he becomes the F1 champion his name will sound like a F1 driver name. In order to be a F1 champion it is required to have names like Mario, Kiki, Nigel, Alain, Ayrton, Nelson, Mika, Jacques, Niki, Jochen, Emerson, Graham, Nino or Kristjan.

    I am so very sorry you felt compelled to make this post William because now I have to break the news to Billy and Jeff that they will never be F1 racers and they are name disqualified. It does not work to do a name change to Billinito or Jefferonis or something like that. It is required you drive under your birth name.

    I need to call those two now to console them. Their parents and sponsors have been shielding them for years from this harsh truth.

    George
    Kenny
    Fred
    Chris
    Bob
    Michael
    Keith
    Frank
    Chuck
    Peter
    Bill
    Richard
    Graham
    Bob
    Jimmy
    John
    Johnny
    Trevor

    ... Very "Formula 1" names huh?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...la_One_drivers

    At least Jeff Tyler has two first names - like Ricky Bobby!!!

    Unless you have the contacts or budget to put him in Formula Pro Mazda, F3000, Formula BMW, F2000, F3000, etc... Get him into some sort of car after a few years in karts. You can now race at <16years of age. If that was the rule 6 years ago, I would have been out of karts and into cars sooner.

  20. #40
    Professor Chaos thefrush's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Sacramento, CA
    Posts
    1,087
    Liked
    1 times

    Default

    ^^ Beat me to it.
    "The crashes people remember, but drivers remember the near misses" -Mario Andretti

+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts