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Thread: HPDE instructor killed, 2 injured at Summit Point

  1. #41
    Member Pyr0monk3y's Avatar
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    That's a really hard picture to see, I'm really sorry for everyone involved. That car doesn't look track prepared at all (not that it would've helped). I easily forget that every time I hit the track, I am accepting an uncertain amount of risk. It's all fun and games until something you can't prepare for happens.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyr0monk3y View Post
    That's a really hard picture to see, I'm really sorry for everyone involved. That car doesn't look track prepared at all (not that it would've helped). I easily forget that every time I hit the track, I am accepting an uncertain amount of risk. It's all fun and games until something you can't prepare for happens.
    In other words, "$h!t happens on a race track." -- Richard EVO
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    Track Whore Pure EvoIX's Avatar
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    first thing i notice were the **** tires. I stand corrected then Oli. We all know death is around the corner if we get it wrong, or something you can't control happens....yet we all push 10/10ths on the track and give it all we got? Why is it that? Won't preservation of life > lap times or beating the other guy in a race. Why not drive 9/10ths. There is something in us drivers that just toss caution to wind and drive 10/10ths KNOWING bad things will and can happen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olitho View Post
    Always be afraid. It is the best protector we have.
    Couldn't agree more. Especially as I've started getting back into track days with an eye towards TT... I find myself taking things a bit more cautious then I did 6-8 years ago when I was doing this on a regular basis.
    Case in point? I was at Laguna a few weeks ago... took it nice and easy during the first two sessions of the day.

    Then I decided to push my limits. "Never had any problems in 9"... "Never gone four off before"... and what happens?


    This.

    Took me the remainder of the afternoon to shake it off... and even with an instructor in the car during my last session of the day... I was over three seconds slower than I was during my morning warm-up laps, even while attacking turns 5 and 6 faster then I'd done during my earlier laps.

    I've "lost" that feeling of invincibility I had when I was younger... and think about the consequences far too often now... though it's not a bad thing.
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  5. #45
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    Pure . . . What safety equipment do you have in YOUR car?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pure EvoIX View Post
    first thing i notice were the **** tires. I stand corrected then Oli. We all know death is around the corner if we get it wrong, or something you can't control happens....yet we all push 10/10ths on the track and give it all we got? Why is it that? Won't preservation of life > lap times or beating the other guy in a race. Why not drive 9/10ths. There is something in us drivers that just toss caution to wind and drive 10/10ths KNOWING bad things will and can happen.
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    2006 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution IX MR 6-MT - when I need a backseat, 4-doors, or a real trunk, and still want to haul ass . . .

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    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif Blackbird's Avatar
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    ^ Autopower 4 point roll bar, IIRC.

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    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif emilio700's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard EVO View Post
    Pure . . . What safety equipment do you have in YOUR car?
    I'm curious about this too. As the fastest Redline Time Attack car with several high dollar engines gone through, I assume the safety equipment matches the level of HP.
    What roll bar?
    Bolt or weld in?
    Seat mounted on slider or fixed?
    Backing plates on seat anchors?
    How are belts anchored?
    Automatic fire system or bottle?
    If bottle only, is it within reach of the driver?
    Left side net?
    Right side net?
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    Not Certified Slow SDSUsnowboards's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pure EvoIX View Post
    first thing i notice were the **** tires. I stand corrected then Oli. We all know death is around the corner if we get it wrong, or something you can't control happens....yet we all push 10/10ths on the track and give it all we got? Why is it that? Won't preservation of life > lap times or beating the other guy in a race. Why not drive 9/10ths. There is something in us drivers that just toss caution to wind and drive 10/10ths KNOWING bad things will and can happen.
    You are trying to rationalize a primitive, emotional phenomena. There is a lot of denial, selfishness, and blindness on a race track. Death, dismemberment, paralysis, and/or ruined financials are around the corner for every participant. Some people will leave behind offspring. Others will leave behind a significant other, a sibling, parents, and friends. Some will deny the world their talents. There is no justification for motorsports. It is not and never will be a need. It's something we all want. And, why is that? Danger? Competition? Challenge? The visceral sensation of piloting a tumultuous, phallic object of death and destruction at high speeds? Probably all four. There are safer ways to be competitive, there are less competitive ways to put yourself in danger, and painting is challenging I hear. Motorsports delivers all four--and more. Every time each and every one of us goes out there we face the possibility of our own mortality and unfulfilled responsibilities. We either selfishly accept that, or turn a blind eye to it and keep it out of our minds, or we find ways to deny it.

    If we didn't then how would we fulfill our primordial desire to leap spear first into the snarling tiger? Every thing is so safe in this modern world. The government wants to protect your from yourself, and will codify that desire into law on a daily basis. Even on this forum of selfish, blind risk takers in denial will you find those who want to protect you from yourself, for various reasons. Theme parks (simulated danger), and violent media (vicarious danger) are popular consumer commodities for a reason. People want to feel like they are pushing the envelope. People want to feel they have gone through a crucible of some sort, endured trials and tribulations, and came out the other side. What sets Mr. 10/10th apart is that he actually does it, because he's better at being selfish, or denying the danger, choosing to be ignorant of it.
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    Senior Member comradefks's Avatar
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    Really sad to hear about the type of tragedy at any time.

    Makes me glad I spent a little extra coin getting side impact protection on the passenger side of my cage the same as the driver because I do ride alongs for friends.

    Do you guys make passengers wear HANS devices when riding along? Everything is there for it (seat, harness, etc) but I don't have a spare HANS for use when I go out.

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    Senior Member slodrew's Avatar
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    It's an addiction -adrenaline.. The closer you ride that edge, the better the rush.. Some folks have it a lot worse than we do.. We're a bunch of sissies compared to this guy lol
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  11. #51
    Track Whore Pure EvoIX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackbird View Post
    ^ Autopower 4 point roll bar, IIRC.
    Incorrect. TC Design 4 pt bolt in rollbar with welded plates and boxed at the bottom. Next week dropping car off for 6pt cage with nascar door bars on driver side. I think i mentioned this already.
    Zhong (Evo IX) | Angry Panda Racing

    1:53.396 @ BRP CW13 - 11/14/13
    1:47.2xx @ Laguna Seca - 11/28/10
    2:03.026 @ Thill CCW Bypass - 12/20/14
    2:05.100 @ CVR CCW - 1/16/11
    1:58.151 @ CVR CW - 5/5/13
    1:25.56x @ WSIR - 10/13/13
    1:23.128 @ SOW CW - 7/27/14
    1:22.2xx @ SOW CCW - 7/26/14
    1:46.0xx @ ACS Roval - 11/23/14
    1:11.299 @ ACS Infield - 5/18/14

    Fastest Limited/Mod Class Evo in Time Attack at WSIR
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  12. #52
    Track Whore Pure EvoIX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
    I'm curious about this too. As the fastest Redline Time Attack car with several high dollar engines gone through, I assume the safety equipment matches the level of HP.
    What roll bar?
    Bolt or weld in?
    Seat mounted on slider or fixed?
    Backing plates on seat anchors?
    How are belts anchored?
    Automatic fire system or bottle?
    If bottle only, is it within reach of the driver?
    Left side net?
    Right side net?
    What roll bar?
    TC Design

    Bolt or weld in?
    Both. Plates are welded in and boxed. Bars are bolted to the plates. Attached to strongest part of floor.

    Seat mounted on slider or fixed?
    Fixed Back Recaro Hans Pro Racer currently on slider. Too high for my liking at the moment. Will go to fixed.

    Backing plates on seat anchors?
    No. stock mount location.

    How are belts anchored?
    Eye bolts to chassis. shoulder harness belts wrapped properly on rollbar. 6pt harness.

    Automatic fire system or bottle?
    Currently Fire bottle. Will be upgrading to SPA 4Liter AFFF multi Flow mechanical Fire System 6 nozzle.

    If bottle only, is it within reach of the driver?
    Currently yes. Passenger floor attaches to front pass seat mounting location. Can reach when seated.

    Left side net?
    No.

    Right side net?
    No.

    Will also be installing a kill switch within reach of driver and safety crew. Also installing a permanent tow hook in front. Right now its removable.

    i also have 3layer fire suit, gloves, nomex balaclava, nomex socks, driving shoes, HANS device, helmet obviously.

    helluvalot safer than the joe schmoe off the street.

    like u all said, fire doesn't discriminate, and accidents/spins happen regardless of who is behind the wheel. bad luck and bad things can happen to anyone at anyone. it is about mitigating risk. I mean hell, if we want all safety, might as well say racecars only on track...no street cars allowed.
    Last edited by Pure EvoIX; 06-10-2014 at 01:47 AM.
    Zhong (Evo IX) | Angry Panda Racing

    1:53.396 @ BRP CW13 - 11/14/13
    1:47.2xx @ Laguna Seca - 11/28/10
    2:03.026 @ Thill CCW Bypass - 12/20/14
    2:05.100 @ CVR CCW - 1/16/11
    1:58.151 @ CVR CW - 5/5/13
    1:25.56x @ WSIR - 10/13/13
    1:23.128 @ SOW CW - 7/27/14
    1:22.2xx @ SOW CCW - 7/26/14
    1:46.0xx @ ACS Roval - 11/23/14
    1:11.299 @ ACS Infield - 5/18/14

    Fastest Limited/Mod Class Evo in Time Attack at WSIR
    2nd Fastest Limited/Mod Class Evo in Time Attack at BRP 13CW

  13. #53
    Track Whore Pure EvoIX's Avatar
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    in a perfect world, everyone would be trailering their racecars to the track with truck and trailer. No one would be arrive drive their car to the track. There are many red group drivers who drive their cars to the track. Is it right? Is it wrong? It is about how much risk they are willing to take at same time mitigating risk as much as possible given their own individual specific situation.

    Not sure if you heard, but im getting a fully welded in cage with gussets in a and b pillars. the whole shebang in a week.


    p.s. im getting a welded in cage soon.

    p.s.s did i mention a 6pt cage.

    P.s.s.s. next event im doing will have cage and fire system ready. I am skipping next event this month.

    i hear you all loud and clear since last year. i had some big expenses recently with the engines and stuff as u might have heard...so i saved enough and partnered up with a shop who can install a proper rollcage.
    Last edited by Pure EvoIX; 06-10-2014 at 01:55 AM.
    Olitho and bellwilliam like this.
    Zhong (Evo IX) | Angry Panda Racing

    1:53.396 @ BRP CW13 - 11/14/13
    1:47.2xx @ Laguna Seca - 11/28/10
    2:03.026 @ Thill CCW Bypass - 12/20/14
    2:05.100 @ CVR CCW - 1/16/11
    1:58.151 @ CVR CW - 5/5/13
    1:25.56x @ WSIR - 10/13/13
    1:23.128 @ SOW CW - 7/27/14
    1:22.2xx @ SOW CCW - 7/26/14
    1:46.0xx @ ACS Roval - 11/23/14
    1:11.299 @ ACS Infield - 5/18/14

    Fastest Limited/Mod Class Evo in Time Attack at WSIR
    2nd Fastest Limited/Mod Class Evo in Time Attack at BRP 13CW

  14. #54
    BMW Master bawareca's Avatar
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    It was about time to do that,you have only a few lives left now
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    Senior Member Gian's Avatar
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    Wow. This is sad news. I have been Instructing on and off since 96. The horror stories are true. I do enjoy it. But there are times, it's just better t
    My condolences to the family for their loss and well wishes to the injured.
    That's not a Typo, I just can't spell no so well.

  16. #56
    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif Blackbird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pure EvoIX View Post
    Attached to strongest part of floor.
    Just a general comment, not about your particular bar because I haven't seen it, but the strongest part of the floor is almost never the actual floor.
    This is the biggest issue when you look at most bolt in structures, the attachment point has to take the ability to put a backing plate into account.
    The common compromise is to have the mounting point bolted to an area where there are only one or two layers of sheet metal, it's easy to drill and pop the bolts in through the mounting and backing plates.
    But what makes it easier to design and install is also what makes it less safe as we've all read in the gentleman's account of how the AP cage failed the user - the mounting plate punched right through the floor.
    The single layer of sheet can be cut like a sardine can.

    This is the sort of compromise that a well designed cage doesn't have to make.
    The fabricator has the ability to attach the mounting plates to areas that are capable of supporting the loads far better, and assuming your fabricator knows what he's doing, this is how it should be done.
    Now whether your fabricator knows what he's doing remains to be seen, there are plenty of shops out there that do some unbelievably scary $hit.
    Whoever you are working with, educate yourself in the specs that need to be met, materials to be used and so forth.
    I have recently seen a cage that was done for RLTA by a shop that should know better, because the amount of design flaws and and features that are not going to pass a proper tech inspection was staggering. Talking to the driver of the car, he simply trusted the shop with the job and had no clue what was wrong with the cage.

  17. #57
    BMW Master bawareca's Avatar
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    You mean something like that:


  18. #58
    Track Whore Pure EvoIX's Avatar
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    bawareca, who is that addressing too?
    Zhong (Evo IX) | Angry Panda Racing

    1:53.396 @ BRP CW13 - 11/14/13
    1:47.2xx @ Laguna Seca - 11/28/10
    2:03.026 @ Thill CCW Bypass - 12/20/14
    2:05.100 @ CVR CCW - 1/16/11
    1:58.151 @ CVR CW - 5/5/13
    1:25.56x @ WSIR - 10/13/13
    1:23.128 @ SOW CW - 7/27/14
    1:22.2xx @ SOW CCW - 7/26/14
    1:46.0xx @ ACS Roval - 11/23/14
    1:11.299 @ ACS Infield - 5/18/14

    Fastest Limited/Mod Class Evo in Time Attack at WSIR
    2nd Fastest Limited/Mod Class Evo in Time Attack at BRP 13CW

  19. #59
    Track Whore Pure EvoIX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bawareca View Post
    You mean something like that:

    Something like that. It is in the corner of where the floor meets the vertical part for the rear seat area. It is boxed, but maybe half that size. Not sure if the angle is same or the bar is welded to box. There are 3"x3" backing plates that go behind each of the points from underneath if i remember correctly. Anyways moot point...getting cage welded in.
    bawareca likes this.
    Zhong (Evo IX) | Angry Panda Racing

    1:53.396 @ BRP CW13 - 11/14/13
    1:47.2xx @ Laguna Seca - 11/28/10
    2:03.026 @ Thill CCW Bypass - 12/20/14
    2:05.100 @ CVR CCW - 1/16/11
    1:58.151 @ CVR CW - 5/5/13
    1:25.56x @ WSIR - 10/13/13
    1:23.128 @ SOW CW - 7/27/14
    1:22.2xx @ SOW CCW - 7/26/14
    1:46.0xx @ ACS Roval - 11/23/14
    1:11.299 @ ACS Infield - 5/18/14

    Fastest Limited/Mod Class Evo in Time Attack at WSIR
    2nd Fastest Limited/Mod Class Evo in Time Attack at BRP 13CW

  20. #60
    dirty smack talker hakeem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pure EvoIX View Post
    ^ Then again, people are ignorant and don't know the type of dangers that veterans do. They know there is an element danger, don't get me wrong, but they don't know how close they are from 1 mistake from getting seriously hurt or killed.
    Noobies don't know any better. If it happened to someone who have been doing it for 5, 10+ years, then shame on him/her. He/she should have known better.

    Well this event wasn't a typical normal HPDE event. People were throwing beer cans from a bridge and that caused an earlier 2 car wreck, which sent 1 guy on a medivac ride. So there was some sort of gathering/event going on besides the HPDE.
    F1 is a good example of this absolutely not being true; drivers used to be killed during practice and qualifying. Should they know better? Or are they just going for the fastest lap like you are?

    What changed to prevent all that is a huge increase in driver and vehicle safety after Senna's death. People still crash just as badly, but the result is relatively minor comparatively, and no one has been killed since.
    bawareca likes this.

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