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Thread: HP or Torque ? for lower lap time ?

  1. #121
    Senior Member DocNrock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robburgoon View Post
    Now you're just being difficult! And I think you're getting lost on a tangent. Leave weight loss completely out of it. It has almost nothing to do with comparing a torquey engine and a horsepower engine.
    At least I got a out of you.

    But I'm not being difficult nor am I getting lost on any tangent. If you go back to William's first post, he was asking about lap times based upon the torque and power of two different engine builds . I assume that William has a deep knowledge of drive ratios, etc. Therefore, I also assume he was asking about these engines independently of altering drive ratios, etc. In other words, engine vs. engine in the same car. Others, including yourself, started introducing variables like drive ratios as torque multipliers. Since a variable was introduced that was not asked for, I thought I'd throw out another one which is equally valid, although more difficult and expensive to attain. I simply threw in weight because in reality it is horsepower to weight ratio rather than absolute horsepower itself that will determine how fast the car will go. If you are going to throw in gear ratios as multipliers, vehicle weight is completely fair. But to be sure, I don't think William was asking about either one of these. I could be wrong but my impression was he was asking which engine would lay down a faster lap given otherwise identical cars.

    You don't compensate with gear ratios much for a horsepower engine, what you describe brings to mind putting two transfer cases in series for rock crawling. Most of the time without getting too crazy with gearing you can get all the torque you can handle at the lowest speeds that we see (20mph? and how often do we use 1st gear?). Horsepower just lets you stay in the shorter gear longer (higher output torque to rear wheels) before shifting to the taller gear. And like you say, a fatty hp curve engine means if you decide you need to short shift, you don't get kicked in the balls as hard for it.
    I never said that gear ratios are used to compensate for a horsepower engine??? What did I say to generate this series transfer case analogy? I said that less horsepower can be compensated for by a decrease in vehicle weight. Putting transfer cases in series for rock crawling would be yet another example of torque multiplication by gearing. But I would say that it is a fatty torque curve that allows you to short shift or recover from a shift to a higher than intended gear, not the hp curve. If you're short-shifting, you're probably in the torque band, although you could be in the hp band, depending upon the car. But I agree, a "fatty hp curve" is going to come from a fatty torque curve. One is measured. One is calculated and kicks in at higher revs.

    I think you might be too focused on the engine torque curve when even though horsepower isn't something you measure directly, it's the best way to compare what real torque you can manage to produce at the rear wheels at a given car velocity.
    Perhaps I am wrong, but I understand hp to be what you realize above about 5250 rpm, where the curves cross. Below that, it is "raw" torque that you are experiencing. That's why the Corvette example you posted makes sense. He didn't have to downshift. He just rumbled from his torque band to his hp band. If you look at my dyno plot, I can tell you that my car pulls pretty hard when in the middle of the torque band, when the hp is relatively puny.

    Also, I think many of us know that area under the horsepower curve is what matters, but William was worrying me when he wasn't coughing up curves for comparisons.
    Agreed, but you and I both know that William understands the difference between hp and torque, as well as the difference between peak numbers and the AUC. He probably didn't post curves because he was still in the theoretical conceptualiztion phase of a build. Thus, he probably didn't have curves to post.

    Anyway, I don't want to derail this thread any further. I just hope William got his answer.
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  2. #122
    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
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    I'm not gonna touch that post. If anyone still doesn't get it, I did my best.

  3. #123
    Chest hair required Olitho's Avatar
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    William is smart like a fox. He knew the answer before he posted the question. He is just getting us all to think.


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  4. #124
    BMW Master bawareca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robburgoon View Post
    Right, those are your ratios, I was using miata ratios for my example.

    Final drive? Now you're just playing dumb. I'm sorry I insulted your beloved car's honor, but if it works for you, enjoy it.
    Of course,Miata gear ratios are applicable everywhere,expect Christian Horner to implement them for the next few races.Of course you are putting a lot of effort to insult everything BMW(especially the drivers/fans),but I am not your shrink to tell you where your problem is.I have enough knowledge and funds to put a V10 in my car(even in yours)if i like to,what i am doing is for fun.
    Nuff said,let's move on.

  5. #125
    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bawareca View Post
    Of course,Miata gear ratios are applicable everywhere,expect Christian Horner to implement them for the next few races.Of course you are putting a lot of effort to insult everything BMW(especially the drivers/fans),but I am not your shrink to tell you where your problem is.I have enough knowledge and funds to put a V10 in my car(even in yours)if i like to,what i am doing is for fun.
    Nuff said,let's move on.
    The biggest problem with BMW drivers is they can't seem to put together a decent comeback. "You used miata gear ratios for your example and I am smart and have lots of money"


  6. #126
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    Of course,Miata gear ratios are applicable everywhere,expect Christian Horner to implement them for the next few races.Of course you are putting a lot of effort to insult everything BMW(especially the drivers/fans),but I am not your shrink to tell you where your problem is.I have enough knowledge and funds to put a V10 in my car(even in yours)if i like to,what i am doing is for fun.
    Nuff said,let's move on.
    Quote Originally Posted by robburgoon View Post
    The biggest problem with BMW drivers is they can't seem to put together a decent comeback. "You used miata gear ratios for your example and I am smart and have lots of money"

    I think this thread between robburgoon and bawareca might qualify as the stupidest argument in the history of the internet, and there have been a lot of stupid arguments that have come before.
    The deposed former Sheriff of trackHQ . . .

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  7. #127
    Sir flink
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    Quote Originally Posted by robburgoon View Post
    The biggest problem with BMW drivers is they can't seem to put together a decent comeback.
    This thread sucks.

    (^^owns 5 BMWs)

  8. #128
    Captain Planet tq3z's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard EVO View Post
    I think this thread between robburgoon and bawareca might qualify as the stupidest argument in the history of the internet, and there have been a lot of stupid arguments that have come before.

    No way I like Rob's snide remarks and humor. You clearly don't read many forums if this is as stupid as it gets for you lol.
    Do you understand?

  9. #129
    Senior Member psychoazn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. Tyler View Post
    Ok I read your earlier posts, and seems like you get it and I misunderstood your recent post. I was thinking in generalities, not specifically the F20C S2000; my bad. Like you said in your earlier posts, and what I've been saying all along, is you need to set your shift points to maximize AUC.
    Success! We agree ^_^

  10. #130
    Senior Member psychoazn's Avatar
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    ^^ We need to introduce Richard to the non-nazi s2ki forums... he happens to post in the only one that is actually governed by nazis

  11. #131
    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    I forgot what my question was
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  12. #132
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    ^^^ It was "can anybody here get into a pizzing contest and make this the stupidest thread of all time?"

    You got some takers.
    The deposed former Sheriff of trackHQ . . .

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  13. #133
    Smack-Talkin' Member J. Tyler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bellwilliam View Post
    I forgot what my question was
    All you need to know is:

    Torque = Force

    Power = Work / time

    (Work = Force x Distance)

    Basically, Power is the rate at which a certain Force is applied. Or, simply, Power is the rate at which Work is performed. Power is what matters.

    /thread

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