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Thread: How to handle cutting course in a race ?

  1. #41
    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    No worry. We are all Trackhq buddies.
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    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif emilio700's Avatar
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    Merely responding to your troll post James. You have a preconceived notion of who I am and how I drive. Yes I make light of your bold accusations and inferences. Sorry but as a guy who just got his comp license, never raced with me or in SPM, never met me, I just can't take you very seriously. So no, it's not a pissing match. That would infer that I am arguing with you. That would be pointless so I don't.

    You are still carrying a grudge that dates back 2 years when I stated, and backed up with facts, that it cost less to run at the front of Supermiata for a full season than it does Spec Miata. You raged, I didn't. Several of us corrected your errors in math. You never forgave me. Thus the grudge and your opinion of me. I have never met you nor seen you race. Therefore I have no opinion of you. Thus I don't troll your posts, nor make comments as to your character like "over driving, over cooking, unsafe, arrogant ass" and such.

    I just make fun of your troll posts though, because that's fun. By the way, it's more fun baiting a troll when the troll does not realize they are a troll or being baited..

    If you are ever at one of our events, drop by and say hi. I promise to talk to you then they same way I do know.. and hand you a beer. You need to chill just a bit
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    Senior Member fatbillybob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bellwilliam View Post
    No worry. We are all Trackhq buddies.
    James one thing you noted is something to the effect, "know who you are racing." They know each other very well. one way to advance in this sport is to have a buddy who you can push to higher levels and he can push you to higher levels. Risk will always be there but so will reward. The 2 drivers know full well the risks they take. Their actions show they accept them. Even if you consider idiots are racing nearby you often have the power to control the risks you take on track by the actions you take. There is always going to be someone on track who you think is too aggressive.

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    Is it too late for me to vote? My vote is for self policing by either lifting enough to let some one pass or close the gap to what it was. If that doesn't happen, there should be a 3 second penalty and the course cutter in question should have to be beer ***** that night (or the next saturday should this occur on a sunday). That person has to fetch beers for every SPM racer at the bbq when they ask for them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bellwilliam View Post
    you passed 2 cars by cutting corner. I believe you need to yield position back. but no time penalty.

    but in F1, this happens all the time. nobody yield positions back......
    F1 gives three warnings prior to a "drive thru" penalty. The last time this came close to occurring was in India, several years ago between Vettle and Alonso

    I don't think you can compare a 15-minute "spec", 140mph max race to a 1.5 hour, 200+mph event. There's just way more opportunities for someone behind to make up those tenths of seconds- that's why they get warnings.

    Spec/Super Miata, no so much. I say, the offending driver should be penalized by the interval time it takes to complete that particular turn, taking the time from braking, turn-in to track out. Its a number you can get from your data systems and it accounts for someone choosing not to brake at all and pulling a "Zanardi"

    It also accounts for the driver that simply over-cooked it into the corner. You made a mistake and you're going to pay a penalty (most likely a the car behind moving past you post finishing order) but all's not lost and you loose a hell of a lot less points than a 5-10 second penalty in such a short race.
    Last edited by 2GRX7; 02-25-2016 at 08:59 AM.

  6. #46
    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ebruner View Post
    Is it too late for me to vote? My vote is for self policing by either lifting enough to let some one pass or close the gap to what it was. If that doesn't happen, there should be a 3 second penalty and the course cutter in question should have to be beer ***** that night (or the next saturday should this occur on a sunday). That person has to fetch beers for every SPM racer at the bbq when they ask for them.
    Fetching beer ? That's crazy talk. I rather take a 10 seconds penalty.

    In case you didn't see Moti's post, we did settle on a time penalty. Anthony is the winner of this race
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  7. #47
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    I debated sending this as a PM to Emilio or posting publicly. Because I was wrong in public I felt it better to apologize in public. So here is my response.

    Good Morning Emilio,
    I am a writing hack. I am going to do my best to respond without it appearing that I am raging. I ask that you accept that I am not even if my words don’t convey that to you.
    Your first paragraph above demonstrates one of the issues I have. It is condescending. Yes I have had a comp license for only a year. But I have been involved in racing for over 10 years. I know enough to have an OPINION on what I see in videos. I saw two guys driving so hard they left the racing surface twice in a short span. My opinion was that you or William were overdriving. In my OPINION, unless you were having mechanical issues, someone was either over driving, or that you believe racing off the surface is acceptable. In your responses back, IMO you purposefully (baiting a troll) reinforced my IMPRESSION that you feel you are without mistakes, without the possibility of driving harder or better. IMO, WE escalated the conversation. You baiting and me responding. You might find that fun. I don’t.
    You are being disingenuous when you say you have no opinion of me. “That isn’t possible”. And it is that position you take on things that has led to my side of our rift. Again, that you are without flaw and anyone that disagrees with you doesn’t know what they are doing. Yes that started 2 years ago with me and you. “Facts” are funny things. They can be skewed just like dyno results. I disagree with your premise you posed at the time that SPM eliminated the high cost of racing these cars, ensured a level playing field, and that the dyno was a definitive tool in ensuring compliance and equality. I have a great amount of respect for you as a driver and as a racing shop. It is exactly because of that respect that I took exception to your “facts”. You know as well as I do that dynos can be manipulated. And therefore equality can’t be ensured, and therefore costs can escalate if you want to run at the front bad enough. Dynos are manipulated in two different ways;
    1. Things done while on the dyno to show artificially low numbers
    2. Things done to increase the performance of the car while on track to produce more power than what the dyno showed.

    This is no super secret knowledge that you have to have a comp license for years to understand. And people with every bit as much experience as you have these views too.
    I don’t want to rehash the validity of your conclusions from those facts you presented. But very quickly and without a lot of recollection of your rule set here is a short brief on how I feel. You have an open rule set on aero and suspension. Those are now two variables that don’t exist in SM. Yes it may be FAIRLY cheap to bolt those parts on. But what isn’t cheap is gaining the experience to work with those two variables. It takes a lot of experience, testing, and track time to run through all the different variables to run at the front. And it is again exactly because of your experience in those areas and the cost it would take for me to gain that experience, on why I won’t drive SPM. I would spend a fortune gaining your experience with just suspension. Aero and suspension don’t show on the dyno. IMO, it is cheaper for me to deal with the limited suspension, chassis, and engine rules presented by SM than it is learning another aspect of racing that you will probably always have an advantage on me. That is my view, and for you to present that your VIEW is anything other than that, and is fact, isn’t being straight with me. It doesn’t bother me in the least that you have a different view than me. It bothers me that you feel your view is fact and that anyone (regardless of their experience) that doesn’t accept your premise is just wrong. For YOU, running at the front of SPM is cheaper than SM. For me it is not. Sure if you want to slap in a used junk yard engine, bolt on some sort of spring and shock set and some aero bits it might be cheaper. But doing that doesn’t ensure you are running at the front. Just ask the guys behind you. And my doubts are not limited to just the suspension and aero. I didn’t see you respond to Ron Alan on his offer to buy your engine at a low junk yard price. IMO, that is because you know your engine well and know that it isn’t just some plopped in junkyard engine. That is an opinion though. It could be completely untrue and you were just resisting his trolling.
    I actually have no problem with drivers overdriving and making mistakes. I have done both. The difference I see though is that I am open to the “fact” that I make mistakes, can always improve, and don’t have the answers to everything.
    To address the original comments I made. Have you ever read one of those driving posts where a driver post a question and you get the IMPRESSION that what they are really fishing for is validation of their actions instead of genuinely wanting to know what people think? My FIRST impression was that this was one of those. And then when I looked at the video and saw that it happened twice, without it being mentioned that it happened twice in the original post, it reinforced that impression. Once that impression was established, I was somewhat blinded to evidence that it may not be one of those. And hence my apology to William. In his response back to me, and subsequently going back and reading what he wrote with a clearer perspective, I changed my mind. That doesn’t mean that I wouldn’t choose to drive differently than you or him. It just means that I no longer thought he was looking for justification for his driving. I drive differently than you and a lot of other people. I am not a fan of stuff like blocking, pinching, brake checking, and using more surface than allowed. Just ask Rob, who I consider a friend. I recently had a much different opinion than he did on crossing over the pit out line at Mazda Raceway. That doesn’t mean that I thought he was an unsafe driver in general even if I thought that his view on that PARTICULAR subject was less safe than my view. And the same goes here. Just because I think you put your cars at risk on this particular day in that particular corner do I believe that in general you and William are unsafe drivers. I don’t. I have seen you drive. You are a great driver. But you don’t need me to tell you that.
    You will indeed see me this year at the track. Maybe then our IMPRESSIONS of each other will change and who knows, maybe it will be the start of a friendship. You can always come over to my trailer too if you are interested in burying the hatchet. I have beer too.
    And lastly, yesterday was probably not the best day for me to be replying to posts. I was out traveling for business and having one of those planes, trains, and automobile days. So to you as well, I apologize for wrongly saying some things about your driving. I’d like to believe though that we can disagree about subjects like cost containment and overdriving scenarios without it meaning that I have no experience to even comment or be taken seriously, and that you are not overly arrogant. And so, as I have had to do many times in my life, I have to apologize for being an arrogant asshole that I know I am at times. You don’t often see me respond to post on forums anymore for that exact reason. Better to just read stuff, not participate, learn, and go back into the shop. Which, is where I am going after work today. I will avoid commenting in the future. I am hoping that with that there is peace with you and me.

    James

  8. #48
    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
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    tl;dr:

    "And lastly, yesterday was probably not the best day for me to be replying to posts. I was out traveling for business and having one of those planes, trains, and automobile days. So to you as well, I apologize for wrongly saying some things about your driving. I’d like to believe though that we can disagree about subjects like cost containment and overdriving scenarios without it meaning that I have no experience to even comment or be taken seriously, and that you are not overly arrogant. And so, as I have had to do many times in my life, I have to apologize for being an arrogant asshole that I know I am at times. You don’t often see me respond to post on forums anymore for that exact reason. Better to just read stuff, not participate, learn, and go back into the shop. Which, is where I am going after work today. I will avoid commenting in the future. I am hoping that with that there is peace with you and me."
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  9. #49
    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2GRX7 View Post
    F1 gives three warnings prior to a "drive thru" penalty. The last time this came close to occurring was in India, several years ago between Vettle and Alonso .
    I don't think you can compare a 15-minute "spec", 140mph max race to a 1.5 hour, 200+mph event.
    the link you quoted me was from another video (unrelated to my corner cutting). it was a video that a car has spun and stopped on track at apex. camera car (and many other cars) went off track to avoid the incident. many many F1 race, 1st corner incident involves cars driving off course to either avoid an accident or just to avoid bottlenecked traffic. never seen a penalty.
    I agree what F1 does there, penalty shouldn't be assessed for avoiding contact. but my penalty (not the same as this example) is well deserved. and like you said, mattered a lot more in a short race.

    140MPH ? anyone hitting 140MPH in a SuperMiata or Spec Miata will be high fived all the way around for such a blatant cheat !!
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    Quote Originally Posted by bellwilliam View Post
    the link you quoted me was from another video (unrelated to my corner cutting). it was a video that a car has spun and stopped on track at apex. camera car (and many other cars) went off track to avoid the incident. many many F1 race, 1st corner incident involves cars driving off course to either avoid an accident or just to avoid bottlenecked traffic. never seen a penalty.
    I agree what F1 does there, penalty shouldn't be assessed for avoiding contact. but my penalty (not the same as this example) is well deserved. and like you said, mattered a lot more in a short race.

    140MPH ? anyone hitting 140MPH in a SuperMiata or Spec Miata will be high fived all the way around for such a blatant cheat !!
    I didn't provide a link, so I'ma assume you're talking to someone else there. As for the 140mph, hea hea, yeah, pure hyperbole, but I thought I was being "nice"! ;-)
    Last edited by 2GRX7; 02-25-2016 at 12:53 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bellwilliam View Post
    140MPH ? anyone hitting 140MPH in a SuperMiata or Spec Miata will be high fived all the way around for such a blatant cheat !!
    I do. All the time.

    33243_la-hy-isuzujoe2.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by bellwilliam View Post

    140MPH ? anyone hitting 140MPH in a SuperMiata or Spec Miata will be high fived all the way around for such a blatant cheat !!
    What speeds were you hitting at ACS in SPM trim?
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    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif Blackbird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ucfbrett View Post
    I do. All the time.
    3269db62becfbf78a41affe0062f0b91.jpg

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    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red_5 View Post
    What speeds were you hitting at ACS in SPM trim?
    according to GPS, highest all weekend is 120MPH by myself. saw a 123MPH in a train.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bellwilliam View Post
    according to GPS, highest all weekend is 120MPH by myself. saw a 123MPH in a train.
    Spec miatas will hit the limiter in 5th at daytona.
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    Administrator ucfbrett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackbird View Post
    image-1.png

  17. #57
    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robburgoon View Post
    Spec miatas will hit the limiter in 5th at daytona.
    I talked to Aaron once about opening up ACS oval for a session......

    I personally would pay $100 just to run a few laps... it is a checklist thing

    good idea ? or a really bad idea ?
    Last edited by bellwilliam; 02-25-2016 at 03:41 PM.
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    Outstanding idea.

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    Not Certified Slow SDSUsnowboards's Avatar
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    How many cars could handle WOT and high RPMs on banked surfaces for 3 laps? I wager that weekend would see more blown motors than the average RX-7 owner sees in one year.
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    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif emilio700's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SDSUsnowboards View Post
    How many cars could handle WOT and high RPMs on banked surfaces for 3 laps? I wager that weekend would see more blown motors than the average RX-7 owner sees in one year.
    We figured the same thing so we can up with a detailed format to help reduce mechanical carnage. We have a doc somewhere, I'll see if I can find it.

    Something like so,

    - Limit it to maybe 1 or 2 hot laps then pull off on back straight and into pits for mandatory drivethrough/cooldown
    - limit to red and green group cars only
    - secondary tech for cars approved in the oval run group
    - limit speed in banking to maybe 140mph for 200tw tires and 150mph for race tires
    - no passengers
    - no rotaries
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