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Thread: How to handle cutting course in a race ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bellwilliam View Post
    Last weekend at ACS Supermiata race.

    I was leading with Emilio following me. Coming to that tight right then left handed just after the bridge (back straight). We both tried to out brake each other. Both missed the corner and cut the course. I didn't yield to him because he also went off course. I do understand about yielding if passed by cutting corner.

    My question is: we both obviously gained advantage on rest of the field as I set a track record that lap , how does other race organization handle that ? It might not be a big deal in a 90 minutes F1 race, but it is a big deal in Supermiata short (~13 minutes) sprint race. I felt bad for Anthony just few seconds behind us. He had no chance of catching us after our "mistake"
    Is it not covered in the sups for the event? You cant go back and fix the results, but the bogus track record should be removed.

    At the 2015 Runoffs in Daytona if you could not negotiate the turn into the chicane you had to bring your car to a complete stop, failure to do so would result in a penalty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bellwilliam View Post
    you passed 2 cars by cutting corner. I believe you need to yield position back. but no time penalty.

    but in F1, this happens all the time. nobody yield positions back......
    You cut the same corner twice!!! Personally I think the guy driving the following car should have been given the lead. Both of you were driving a little over the top if you ask me (blocking, pinching, cutting the course). And that led to the off track excursions. Yeah, maybe 10 second penalty is a bit much, but it is nothing compared to the time penalty had there been a wall there.

    This isn't F1.

    A bit stunned that you feel you shouldn't be penalized for cutting corners. Gentlemen lift IMO. And everyone knows afterwards that the driver did the right thing and recognized that he over drove the corner and deserved to give back some time. And it is equally clear when a driver doesn't. Forcing a time penalty is for those that are unable to do it themselves. And that is what you see in F1 and other series. If the driver is incapable of correcting himself, the stewards do it for them.

    Just my opinion.
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    William did post this morning on the SPM FB page that both him and Emilio are given a time penalty post race and the win indeed went to Anthony which is the driver in the 3rd car.
    That seems to me fair.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamz14 View Post
    .. Both of you were driving a little over the top if you ask me (blocking, pinching, cutting the course)..
    Its referred to as "Flat out".
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    Quote Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
    Its referred to as "Flat out".
    Flat out and without regard to the safety of others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamz14 View Post
    Flat out and without regard to the safety of others.
    I have been reading this thread with interest. I completely disagree with this statement. To make this a blanket statement without consideration for the situation in the race, the conditions and traffic in the corner, etc. is to make a claim without foundation. I have seen many a car over-run this corner and there was little to no danger. If this had been the first lap with William and Emilio running mid-pack in congested traffic and they were going into Turn 8 at WSIR, then yes, I would say it would be a stupid and dangerous move. But this is a slow corner, with runoff, in a known brake-passing zone. No big deal here other than the impact on sportsmanship.
    Last edited by Olitho; 02-24-2016 at 11:44 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamz14 View Post
    Flat out and without regard to what Jamz14 thinks.
    ftfy
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    Quote Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
    Its referred to as "Flat out".
    OK, now who's going to clean up the water I just spit all over my keyboard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ucfbrett View Post
    OK, now who's going to clean up the wine I just spit all over my keyboard.
    ftfy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olitho View Post
    I have been reading this thread with interest. I completely disagree with this statement. To make this a blanket statement without consideration for the situation in the race, the conditions and traffic in the corner, etc. is to make a claim without foundation. I have seen many a car over-run this corner and there was little to no danger. If this had been the first lap with William and Emilio running mid-pack in coongestested traffic and they were going into Turn 8 at WSIR, then yes, I would say it would be a stupid and dangerous move. But this is a slow corner, with runoff, in a known brake-passing zone. No big deal here other than the impact on sportsmanship.
    How about with regard to the safety of each other? I wasn't just talking about competitors a second back. Now maybe they both agree and support each other racing each other that way. But one of these days super miata might be a class bigger than the gang that currently runs and they both might find a different driver they are side by side with. But I think emillo is clear on how he feels about my opinion on things. And I am clear on how I feel about his.

    Doesn't really matter what I feel about it if I am not driving his series. Have at it guys.

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    Oli, to clarify though. I have no problem with over runs. If it happened once I wouldn't have even commented. It happened twice though and it wasn't like they appeared to be dialing it back from the initial mistake. It looked like they were notching it up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamz14 View Post
    It looked like they were notching the flatout up.
    Not possible.
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    Well, to reference another thread then; maybe you and William should be the American f1 contingent. You already think your driving in it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamz14 View Post
    Well, to reference another thread then; maybe you and William should be the American f1 contingent. You already think your driving in it.
    Unsatisfactory troll response. Please make another attempt.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamz14 View Post
    Oli, to clarify though. I have no problem with over runs. If it happened once I wouldn't have even commented. It happened twice though and it wasn't like they appeared to be dialing it back from the initial mistake. It looked like they were notching it up.
    On that track there are two spots that provide the greatest racing, the spot being discussed and entering/exiting Turn Nine. I can't tell you how many times I have gone into that corner side-by-side and had to give a little room or forcefully ask for a bit. It is just one heck of a good racing spot in my opinion. I have over-shot that corner by a bit twice myself and seen many others do it. Seldom have I seen contact there, although I have heard about a good couple of door slams. If there is a place on that track to race hard with impunity or to push the envelope safely, it is that segment of two turns.

    What I am saying without having watched the video is this is much-ado-about-nothing other than the regard for good sportsmanship and gaining unfair advantage.

    If that type of indiscretion was taking place on lap one at Turn Three of ACS or Turns 8/9 at WSIR than I would agree with your assessment about the danger and disregard. I good racer knows where he/she can push the envelope in an environment where there is forgiveness vs. Hell to be paid.
    Last edited by Olitho; 02-24-2016 at 02:37 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by robburgoon View Post
    SCCA I think is "gaining advantage" and is fairly subjective. I reduce speed so I don't gain time or positions from it.
    yeah if you end up with fastest lap of the race or PB lap that lap, then add +5s penalty. If your times are same with other lap times because you lifted after the mistake, no penalty. If you pass another car in the corner cut, you give the position back. If both people cut corner even if for avoiding action, then both must lift enough as to not gain advantage over 3rd place or else you will just suddenly be 3-4s ahead of everyone else.
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    Quote Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
    Unsatisfactory troll response. Please make another attempt.
    no, the comment stands. And unlike your series, you don't get to make those determinations for me. Show a bit of humility and you might deserve a better response.

    Oli, let me throw this out there. I tend to lump safety and equipment damage into the same safety category. But they are different. I agree that this is a safe corner complex to push the safety envelope. But as you pointed out, gear damage and door banging can still occur. And as William pointed out, he didn't know if the always at flat out, and in control, one speed and mode emillo, was going to t bone him or not. We'll maybe damaging gear is acceptable to you guys, but I try to avoid that too. A dollar fixing the car is a dollar not spent on seat time. I know a guy that in a low speed corner was taken out by an overly aggressive entry into a low speed sweeper. Was he at a safety risk? Probably not. But the damage to his recently fixed car was demoralizing. The impact on regional points was real. The waste of a hundreds of dollars on entry fees was real. Showing restraint isn't always about safety. Respecting that we all have investments and come from different financial situations should also factor into showing good judgment and restraint. There is a piece of advice people give drivers; learn who you can race door to door without risking car or limb. Some you can and some race "Flat out" and only have one mode. Win at all costs. I am of the first type. I will lift. I will chose to pass with good corner exits than over cook it into a corner and risk t boning someone else's car. I will lift and demonstrate patience. Getting a good run out of that complex and taking them off of the draft into t3 is a better opportunity imo.

    I am done emillo. Consider this my version of social media lifting. Please proceed with your comments flat out. This run group is too fast for me and I need a slower run group where I can lift without it meaning I am a pussy.

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    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    I refrained from responding, but you kept making things up. I don't know you, and don't think I've ever raced against you. from my 2 offs, you are calling me an unsafe driver ? and how is Emilio an unsafe driver from the video, only off he has is because of me. I can tell you in ~5 years racing with SCCA/NASA, I've never ever once had to file a contact report. Not many can say that with the hours I've put in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamz14 View Post
    A bit stunned that you feel you shouldn't be penalized for cutting corners.
    in my first 3 posts, I said I should of been penalized.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jamz14 View Post
    Well, to reference another thread then; maybe you and William should be the American f1 contingent. You already think your driving in it.
    that's an immature response. I didn't even post on the F1 thread like you have. no need to drag me into it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamz14 View Post
    And as William pointed out, he didn't know if the always at flat out, and in control, one speed and mode emillo, was going to t bone him or not.
    again I didn't say that. I was refering to Emilio's off (he was outside and behind, there is no way I was going to t-bone him or vice versa) following my off and if he should be penalized for it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamz14 View Post
    Oli, let me throw this out there. I tend to lump safety and equipment damage into the same safety category. But they are different. I agree that this is a safe corner complex to push the safety envelope. But as you pointed out, gear damage and door banging can still occur. And as William pointed out, he didn't know if the always at flat out, and in control, one speed and mode emillo, was going to t bone him or not. We'll maybe damaging gear is acceptable to you guys, but I try to avoid that too. A dollar fixing the car is a dollar not spent on seat time. I know a guy that in a low speed corner was taken out by an overly aggressive entry into a low speed sweeper. Was he at a safety risk? Probably not. But the damage to his recently fixed car was demoralizing. The impact on regional points was real. The waste of a hundreds of dollars on entry fees was real. Showing restraint isn't always about safety. Respecting that we all have investments and come from different financial situations should also factor into showing good judgment and restraint. There is a piece of advice people give drivers; learn who you can race door to door without risking car or limb. Some you can and some race "Flat out" and only have one mode. Win at all costs. I am of the first type. I will lift. I will chose to pass with good corner exits than over cook it into a corner and risk t boning someone else's car. I will lift and demonstrate patience. Getting a good run out of that complex and taking them off of the draft into t3 is a better opportunity imo.
    Understood. I totally understand the equipment damage perspective and that is not acceptable. The original post seeme hyperbolic with regards to the implication that these two good racers are a safety menace. Their racing record says otherwise.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olitho View Post
    Understood. I totally understand the equipment damage perspective and that is not acceptable. The original post seeme hyperbolic with regards to the implication that these two good racers are a safety menace. Their racing record says otherwise.
    Agreed. And william. You got dragged into emilos and my Pissing match. I apologize for that.

    You did say that you didn't know if he thought you might t bone him. I mixed the two but point still stands.

    You did say and ask whether there should be a penalty and referenced f1 as an example. I hear in that , that you wonder if a penalty is warranted.

    I saw pinching , blocking , and over cooking the same corner twice in a 13 minute race. That seems like over driving.

    As oli has pointed out and I have agreed with him, probably safe. But put the cars at risk imo. And that was all it was initially. My opinion that you two were overdriving. The rest of it all is just me and Emilio being arrogant asses. Your record is better than mine as I have had to fill out a contact report. That you haven't has my respect.

    Please accept my apology.

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