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Thread: great driving

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    Pro Lurker GreyFocus's Avatar
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    Default great driving

    is it just me, or is this guy incredibly talented. Sorry if its a repost.


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    Senior Member Astraist's Avatar
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    Good video -- talented indeed.

    But, damn these panoramic mirrors are cheap and very dangerous, I never saw them used in tracks around Europe (although they are common on road cars in the so-called "middle" east, however illegal).

    He also appears to use his hands a bit too much and not symmetrically.
    Last edited by Astraist; 02-13-2010 at 04:36 AM.

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    KINOD time attack kenchi's Avatar
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    they let manly on nurburgring again ?

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    Senior Member vetteguy2005's Avatar
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    re: Manly, my thoughts exactly, he is obviously very fast, he passed every car on the track but he has a see saw style with the wheel, I would think he wears out tires a lot faster. Manly has the same style of input.
    Smooth and precise looks better to me. But hey, he is kicking their butts.
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    Senior Member Astraist's Avatar
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    You must distinguish between "smooth" and "precise": In my belief, he is generally smooth enough. Actually, in times, when the corner is relatively tight, or when two close corners are in opposite directions, a quite "decisive" turn-in motion is preferred over a gentle motion.

    As far as "percise", I agree. He is turning it quite a bit, and because of that his hands seem to work in an unsymmetrical fashion: pulling and pushing, rather than using both hands as one.

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    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Astraist View Post
    Good video -- talented indeed.

    But, damn these panoramic mirrors are cheap and very dangerous, I never saw them used in tracks around Europe (although they are common on road cars in the so-called "middle" east, however illegal).

    He also appears to use his hands a bit too much and not symmetrically.
    What's dangerous about the mirrors?

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    Chest hair required Olitho's Avatar
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    At Buttonwillow The Sheriff was telling us it does feel much better and smoother when you use two hands as one.

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    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
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    Wow... I REALLY REALLY want to drive at Spa.

    Driver is qualifying, so I think he can thrash his tires all he wants. Inputs were big, but he's in a 911 so when he is on the gas his front tires are practically hovering, so I'll give him a pass there.

    Car control is stellar considering the 911s are tricky to drive. Looks like a ton of fun!

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    Senior Member Astraist's Avatar
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    The "panoramic" mirror is a much cheaper product than the standart mirror (which is, in fact, a very expensive item of car designing). It normally creates distortions, problem in judging distances from objects appearing in it and in the side mirrors, and can shatter or hit you in an accident, apart from many other disadvantages.

    Both hands should be used as one, unless an input greater than 90 degrees is nessecary (which is very rare).

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    Member urban's Avatar
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    that must be an early 911 , so im sure handling is sketchy. hes really hanging it out at times .
    notice nearly every turn is Counter Steer.

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    "Shoe"
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    Wow, those early Porsches are a handful to drive!

    Its probably a steering-box car (pre- rack) which makes for a lot of slack in the steering system. That combined with the poor weight distribution and rear polar moment/moment of inertia of early Porsches, make it quite a handful.

    You can see the rear of the car flop over and turn the car with a slight turn-in steering input, then he is managing the rear from swapping ends on him with countersteer through most of the corners. I say he's quite talented.

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    Chest hair required Olitho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Astraist View Post
    ...normally creates distortions, problem in judging distances from objects... hit you in an accident... both hands should be used as one....

    Are we talking about the driver in this video or The Sheriff?

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    Senior Member Astraist's Avatar
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    I was referring to the extended, central mirror mounted in that car.

    As far as the driver's car control. Oversteer is better controlled with the gas rather than the steering. If you constantly steer from side to side you are going slow (actually, once you straighten it up you are slow).

    The idea is to get the tail only a bit loose in the turn-in and than using the power to make the rear grip again, which normally results in the car sliding slightly and neutrally (all four tires sliding ever so slightly) across the corner. Countersteering from side to side like this, however skillful the driver needs to be to accomplish this, kills speed!

    If you are referring the old Porsches tendency of understeer, why correct it with the steering, use an Apel contra-Apel with less steering motion and more pedaling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Astraist View Post
    I was referring to the extended, central mirror mounted in that car.
    We use those types of mirrors in our Grand-Am racecars... They work fine for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Astraist View Post
    As far as the driver's car control. Oversteer is better controlled with the gas rather than the steering.
    If you are referring to jumping on the throttle when you have oversteer, I disagree. When your rear tires are sliding, they have a lack of grip. Adding gas will cause the tires to spin and reduce rear grip further - resulting in the car being more sideways and eventually a spin. If the car is sideways, its best to correct with steering and NOT an aggressive throttle input.

    Quote Originally Posted by Astraist View Post
    If you constantly steer from side to side you are going slow (actually, once you straighten it up you are slow).
    For the most part, yes. But in this case of the video, a lot has to do with the car itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Astraist View Post
    Countersteering from side to side like this, however skillful the driver needs to be to accomplish this, kills speed!
    The case of the porsche in the video, it wasn't excessive and I don't think it was slow. In most modern cars, if you have that kind of steering input, then yes, but you have to put the steering inputs in context to the car being driven.

    Quote Originally Posted by Astraist View Post
    If you are referring the old Porsches tendency of understeer, why correct it with the steering, use an Apel contra-Apel with less steering motion and more pedaling.
    They tend to oversteer/be loose/want to spin, not understeer.

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    Senior Member Astraist's Avatar
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    Don't get me wrong on this, but: I agree and disagree/

    There is also a weight transfer involved. If you keep a very slight amount of throttle on, it will improve the recovery. If you do not release pressure from the throttle or sometimes if you just lift-off, your steering corrections would be greatly ineffective, so the throttle is more important than the steering. In a FWD, for an example, the correction is 90% throttle. I do not clearly see his feet on the pedals, so I will not guess anything.

    Additionally, if oversteer is a result of a forward weight transfer rather than excessive power -- and oversteer on the track should only be of this nature rather than by power -- surely one could apply a nice amount of power (not an agressive application, just moderate acceleration) to make the car grip again while straightening the steering and possibly applying slight countersteer. In this case, the transition in weight is more dominant than the tractive demands of the power application, or the steering angle, in any car. The idea is to get the car slightly loose into the turn-in and than give it a bit of gas and it slingshots itself through the corner.

    About the mirrors -- I do not know the particular model you use, but from my familiarity with such mirrors in the road cars around the middle-east, they make things appear too small.

    Additionally, the show you "too much information", making your response time longer, partially because instead of looking and seeing what is directly behind you, you are seeing the whole interior of the car, and through it the rear view. The car designer knew what he was doing when he installed his mirror, trust him!

    I think we can generally agree that this driver could have been much more precise and less horny over the steering wheel.
    Last edited by Astraist; 02-13-2010 at 12:30 PM.

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    Pro Lurker GreyFocus's Avatar
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    GO BILLY!

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    Senior Member Astraist's Avatar
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    I'm not fighting with anyone. It's just a misunderstanding: He interprated my words as "correcting oversteer with the throttle" (which is the method if you are in a FWD) while I was merely referring to a slight addition of power to transfer weight to the rear tires (which are not spinning due to power, but because they are unladen), and possibly remove the need to countersteer. That's all.

    Correcting oversteer in a RWD (or AWD) with just the throttle is only relevant if the speed is very high and the car's engine cannot spin the wheels under accelerator, in which case one can thrust the throttle quite hard to regain traction, rather than risk a skid the other way at a high speed.
    Last edited by Astraist; 02-13-2010 at 01:38 PM.

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    Pro Lurker GreyFocus's Avatar
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    relax man, just pokin fun

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    Chest hair required Olitho's Avatar
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    I just try to drive fast.

    All this stuff is confusing to me.... Oversteer, understeer, correction this, camber that, throttle on, throttle off, push, pull, weight transfer, slip angle, blah, blah, blah!

    Where is that track calendar? I just want to go drive.


  20. #20
    Senior Member Astraist's Avatar
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    Okay, I just don't want to go into useless fighting again, like in the "dark ages".

    Oli: It is clear that there are cultural differences between different parts of the world as far as motorsport is concerned: In Europe, you do not just book a track day, you go on an extensive course and build your driving up from the very basics (yes, even the way you shift gears or turn the wheel) to the level where you can go around the track, even if you are experienced. Here, people take pride of driving courses they had, rather than track days they participated in.

    In the US, I recon such sort of driving would be considered as what you call "HPDE", which is considered as the business of newbies. I'm not saying it is better or worst, I am just pointing out the difference.
    Last edited by Astraist; 02-13-2010 at 01:44 PM.

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