+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 50
Like Tree32Likes

Thread: is good handling FWD possible ? which car and what specification ?

  1. #21
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Rolling Hills Estates
    Posts
    2,948
    Liked
    854 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by eflove View Post
    I don't believe I have ever seen an in-car video with a car that has a sequential shifter that isn't scary quick.

  2. #22
    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    6,853
    Liked
    1429 times

    Default

    Check out my thunder roadster video
    Loose Caboose likes this.

  3. #23
    RaceTape Ninja Force McCocken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Roswell, GA
    Posts
    1,438
    Liked
    742 times

    Default

    William, having owned an e36 m3 and currently an e30, there are some FWD cars I actually like driving more, like a Mini Cooper S or Integra.

    Some of the best battles I remember watching was SCCA's T2 (?) undercard races at their TransAm events. Late 90s, so it was Integras versus e36s. The bimmers had the torque, the Integras had the agility. It made for some VERY excellent and aggressive racing, extremely close.
    Yer pal,
    Force

  4. #24
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    10,979
    Liked
    1477 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kam View Post
    The only real downside to FWD is the ability to put down a lot of power and steer it.(
    That's like saying the only bad thing about the car is that it totally sucks . . .
    bellwilliam, tq3z and rhouck like this.
    The deposed former Sheriff of trackHQ . . .

    2006 Porsche 997 Carerra Coupe 6-MT - daily driver
    1992 Honda (Acura) NSX 5-MT - classic investment I couldn't resist and occasionally drive
    2004 Honda S2000 AP2 6-MT - track day car
    2006 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution IX MR 6-MT - when I need a backseat, 4-doors, or a real trunk, and still want to haul ass . . .

  5. #25
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    103
    Liked
    16 times

    Default

    I to wonder about the fwd world. A month ago I bought a 1998 prelude 5 speed to commute, not gonna lie, I'm gonna put it on the track soon.
    99 miata-tein flex, RB sway bars
    streets cw 1:27.1
    Streets ccw 1:27.8
    Htm cw 1:01.8
    big willow 1:34.6
    Bw13 cw 2:00.8

    2006 miata daily
    Big willow 1:35.08

  6. #26
    Senior Member blackciviccoupe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    178
    Liked
    2 times

    Default

    If you wanna go fast in a fwd car, your best bet would be a civic or an integra because aftermarket parts are plentiful. I only drove my buddy's civic for 3 laps on an open test day and managed to do a 56 despite the driving errors you see in the vid.

    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Jpu4im-lE0U
    1994 honda civic ex DOHC Vtec

  7. #27
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    117
    Liked
    33 times

    Default

    I've driven a few really awesome Mini Cooper's and a well set up Integra once. It wouldn't be my first choice in cars but I think there are a few gems out there and can be pretty fun to drive. One car I have a secret crush on is a EG6 Civic Hatchback (early 90's) with a K20 swap. I also have always been curious what the Euro hot hatches are like, such as the Clio Renault Sport.
    Last edited by Lincoln Logs; 05-22-2014 at 09:33 PM.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Silversprint's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    827
    Liked
    143 times

    Default

    Cobalt SS. Just make sure to duct tape the key to the ignition so it doesnt fall out and kill you.
    MR2 Spyder 2zz turbo
    Mazda RX7 FD
    Porsche 911E

  9. #29
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    10,979
    Liked
    1477 times

    Default

    ^^^ Good one . . .
    The deposed former Sheriff of trackHQ . . .

    2006 Porsche 997 Carerra Coupe 6-MT - daily driver
    1992 Honda (Acura) NSX 5-MT - classic investment I couldn't resist and occasionally drive
    2004 Honda S2000 AP2 6-MT - track day car
    2006 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution IX MR 6-MT - when I need a backseat, 4-doors, or a real trunk, and still want to haul ass . . .

  10. #30
    RaceTape Ninja Force McCocken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Roswell, GA
    Posts
    1,438
    Liked
    742 times

    Default

    William, I was thinking this over a bit and considering something I have heard you say to me in person and read it here on the forum...you don't like sliding/oversteer. I get it, I am the same way. The handling on most FWD cars is crisp and agile, but you always feel the disproportionate weight balance. Driving is about directional control and managing momentum through the steering wheel and brakes. A FWD car always feels a little like you are being pulled in directions, obviously. Controlling the car makes you work differently to manage that momentum than a RWD car. The methods you use as a driver to control direction can be almost the exact opposite of those in a RWD car. Trailbraking and LFB are used a lot to help the car rotate, but controlling the rotation is tricky because of the weight balance and pulling drive wheels up front.

    McPherson FWD cars, to me, feel similar to MacP RWD cars because the geometry and characteristics are similar in the way the geometry changes through its travel. They don't have the mechanical grip a double wishbone has. This can make driving car like a BMW a little crude or even disappointing if you are accustomed to loads of mech grip like a Miata or s2k. However, the design of the BMW MacP suspension is incredibly simple and elegant. If you make an "L" with your thumb and forefinger on either hand, you can demonstrate the essential control arm configuration on most BMWs from the '80s-'10s. The tip of your thumb is essentially where the tire mounts, the forefinger is the trailing portion mounted to the unibody. The web of your thumb is the balljoint mounted to the front subframe. With that, you can move your hand around to understand how simple it is to get caster. MacP cars never feel as refined or smooth to me than DW cars in handling. They simply take a greater concentration and awareness to use them as a driver.

    An LSD on a FWD car creates some interesting forces and characteristics and that again figures on the layout of suspension and halfshafts.

    The Mini, the Acura TSX and current FWD cars with IRS are more fun to drive, offer more feedback. The beam axle FWD cars are fun, too, but the rear always feels very unsettled on choppy pavement or rapid turns and transitions (Fiesta).

    I'm sure not everyone will agree.
    bellwilliam likes this.
    Yer pal,
    Force

  11. #31
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    OC, CA
    Posts
    168
    Liked
    133 times

    Default

    I used to have an 06 mini cooper S (Last of the m45 blower models) that was decently quick. Typical mac phearson fwd setup though to go fast. Scary stiff rear bar and lots of snap oversteer... lots of either waiting until the right moment to apply the throttle or just pounding the throttle and eating front tires. Due to the mac phearson front end you have to run insane static camber that hurts straight line throttle application. My car struggled to put down power properly once i hit around 230whp so more power wasn't dropping lap times.

    Good car, wouldn't buy another one for track duty due to suspension limitations and reliability issues.

    My wife currently dailies a 2011 mazdaspeed3. I quite like it for a fun yet usable street car. If you're keeping the turbo spooled it makes enough power to get yourself in big trouble. The handling characteristics are quite good from the factory, much less understeer prone than the bmw tuned mini was. To drive it fast you really have to put the car on it's nose and used the LSD and torque steer to yank it around corners. It will absolutely murder front tires without significant camber. Overall I think it's a better street car. With sticky Max perfs, airbox, tune custom alignment (you can get about -1.2 front camber playing with the front end bolts) it seems to turn about the same lap times as my nb1 on streets of willow. You can tell it's a heavy car and it drives like it has 60% of it's weight on it's nose (which it does).

    Overall the best fwd car I've ever driven (or the two best I suppose) is a well prepped k20 swapped CRX or an EG civic. You just can't beat double wishbone fwd with decent power.

    That being said... after tracking my mini quite a bit... I'm done with FWD for the forseable future. You can drive a fwd fast as hell for what they are... but it's just not quite as engaging for me as a RWD car. It is fun to be able to overdrive the car with fairly minimal consequences however.
    Schmoe Money likes this.

  12. #32
    Senior Member Silversprint's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    827
    Liked
    143 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Force McCocken View Post
    William, I was thinking this over a bit and considering something I have heard you say to me in person and read it here on the forum...you don't like sliding/oversteer. I get it, I am the same way. The handling on most FWD cars is crisp and agile, but you always feel the disproportionate weight balance. Driving is about directional control and managing momentum through the steering wheel and brakes. A FWD car always feels a little like you are being pulled in directions, obviously. Controlling the car makes you work differently to manage that momentum than a RWD car. The methods you use as a driver to control direction can be almost the exact opposite of those in a RWD car. Trailbraking and LFB are used a lot to help the car rotate, but controlling the rotation is tricky because of the weight balance and pulling drive wheels up front.

    McPherson FWD cars, to me, feel similar to MacP RWD cars because the geometry and characteristics are similar in the way the geometry changes through its travel. They don't have the mechanical grip a double wishbone has. This can make driving car like a BMW a little crude or even disappointing if you are accustomed to loads of mech grip like a Miata or s2k. However, the design of the BMW MacP suspension is incredibly simple and elegant. If you make an "L" with your thumb and forefinger on either hand, you can demonstrate the essential control arm configuration on most BMWs from the '80s-'10s. The tip of your thumb is essentially where the tire mounts, the forefinger is the trailing portion mounted to the unibody. The web of your thumb is the balljoint mounted to the front subframe. With that, you can move your hand around to understand how simple it is to get caster. MacP cars never feel as refined or smooth to me than DW cars in handling. They simply take a greater concentration and awareness to use them as a driver.

    An LSD on a FWD car creates some interesting forces and characteristics and that again figures on the layout of suspension and halfshafts.

    The Mini, the Acura TSX and current FWD cars with IRS are more fun to drive, offer more feedback. The beam axle FWD cars are fun, too, but the rear always feels very unsettled on choppy pavement or rapid turns and transitions (Fiesta).

    I'm sure not everyone will agree.
    I have a fwd 6speed 2013 tsx. To be honest it feels like ever other fwd car I have driven. Not really fun. My Mr2 spyder with macstrut suspension is a way better handling sports car.

    I think if you track rwd cars then fwd cars will feel different. I personally don't like them. They are either comfortable for the street and push a lot or then are super loose to rotate.
    Last edited by Silversprint; 05-23-2014 at 09:11 AM.
    MR2 Spyder 2zz turbo
    Mazda RX7 FD
    Porsche 911E

  13. #33
    RaceTape Ninja Force McCocken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Roswell, GA
    Posts
    1,438
    Liked
    742 times

    Default

    It's balance and drive wheels. Your Acura is a DW front, FWD, front engine. The MrToo is MacP front, mid engine RWD car. Apples to oranges.
    Yer pal,
    Force

  14. #34
    dirty smack talker hakeem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    San Francisco, CA
    Posts
    3,076
    Liked
    977 times

    Default

    tl;dr. No.

  15. #35
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Santa Monica, CA
    Posts
    152
    Liked
    12 times

    Default

    CRX/Civic for great handling FWD!

    The first time I went for a ride in a well setup CRX I was amazed at how well it handled and rotated in corners.
    AP1 S2000 w/KW V3s on 255 RS3s (square setup)

  16. #36
    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    La Verne, California, United States
    Posts
    7,644
    Liked
    2282 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BigHapa View Post
    CRX/Civic for great handling FWD!

    The first time I went for a ride in a well setup CRX I was amazed at how well it handled and rotated in corners.
    but better than a well setup Miata ? how about a stock Miata ?
    Supermiata S1, SuperMiata S2, Supermiata S3
    13 Tesla, ma: no engine !!
    17 GT350 !!
    08 M3 - Carmax warranty !!
    96 NSX
    06 EVO MR
    15 Mini Cooper S

  17. #37
    Senior Member Silversprint's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    827
    Liked
    143 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Force McCocken View Post
    It's balance and drive wheels. Your Acura is a DW front, FWD, front engine. The MrToo is MacP front, mid engine RWD car. Apples to oranges.
    I think RWD vs FWD is what William is inquiring about more than the suspension design. IMHO regardless of front suspension design the FWD car is still not going to feel as nice a properly setup rwd car even with macpherson suspension.

    I was only partially joking about the cobalt. GM did an amazing job setting up that car. I remember it ran a 1:51 at buttonwillow during the Redline time attack. I don't think there are any FWD cars that will outrun that car off the showroom floor. The later 2008 turbo cars were even faster.
    MR2 Spyder 2zz turbo
    Mazda RX7 FD
    Porsche 911E

  18. #38
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Rolling Hills Estates
    Posts
    2,948
    Liked
    854 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by robburgoon View Post
    Check out my thunder roadster video
    The "scary" part certainly holds true . . .
    robburgoon and bawareca like this.

  19. #39
    Pro Lurker GreyFocus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    LA eerr day
    Posts
    2,038
    Liked
    103 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Silversprint View Post
    I think RWD vs FWD is what William is inquiring about more than the suspension design. IMHO regardless of front suspension design the FWD car is still not going to feel as nice a properly setup rwd car even with macpherson suspension.

    I was only partially joking about the cobalt. GM did an amazing job setting up that car. I remember it ran a 1:51 at buttonwillow during the Redline time attack. I don't think there are any FWD cars that will outrun that car off the showroom floor. The later 2008 turbo cars were even faster.
    from what i remember, that car was unlimted class fully stripped and extensive cage, expensive/well setup suspension, DOT slicks, tire warmers, and nitrous

  20. #40
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Rolling Hills Estates
    Posts
    2,948
    Liked
    854 times

    Default

    Your Focus was/is no slouch!

    btw: What wheel/tire setup are you running on your Z?
    Last edited by Loose Caboose; 05-23-2014 at 06:02 PM.

+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts