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    Default 60's

    The mid 60's was the golden age of street sports cars that could be taken to the track.
    Todays cars are bloated expensive pigs, with work arounds to avoid "limping".

    I put tens of thousands of hard fast miles on rough bumpy Mulholland in Sunbeam Alpine, MGA, MGB, Lotus Elan, with only one mechanical failure.
    A failure on Mulholland is more than an inconvenience. Others took their cars straight to the track with just the addition of a roll bar for SCCA.

    These cars could be bought used for almost nothing. They cost $2,000 new (like $10,000) now.
    No expensive, heavy, safety equipment, smog devices, air conditioners, crash bumpers, etc.

    Sunbeam and MGB weighed just over 2,000 pounds stock with around 100 hp.
    In an afternoon with some tools, a hole saw and a cutting torch you had an 1,800 pound race car.
    Fill the shocks with STP and heat one coil of the springs to lower and stiffen the suspension and you're good to go.
    Always run the oil one quart over for surge.

    The Lotus Elan weighed 1,300 pounds stock, with 105 hp. Not alot of weight to be removed,
    Chapman did the job right. Wicked fast on a tight course.

    The real deal was the Cobra, $6,000 new (like $30,000 now).
    Within the limits of 60's technology, a track ready hot rod in another league from what today's cars are now
    bellwilliam, bawareca and JJ1 like this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rikgray View Post
    The mid 60's was the golden age of street sports cars that could be taken to the track.
    Todays cars are bloated expensive pigs, with work arounds to avoid "limping".

    I put tens of thousands of hard fast miles on rough bumpy Mulholland in Sunbeam Alpine, MGA, MGB, Lotus Elan, with only one mechanical failure.
    A failure on Mulholland is more than an inconvenience. Others took their cars straight to the track with just the addition of a roll bar for SCCA.

    These cars could be bought used for almost nothing. They cost $2,000 new (like $10,000) now.
    No expensive, heavy, safety equipment, smog devices, air conditioners, crash bumpers, etc.

    Sunbeam and MGB weighed just over 2,000 pounds stock with around 100 hp.
    In an afternoon with some tools, a hole saw and a cutting torch you had an 1,800 pound race car.
    Fill the shocks with STP and heat one coil of the springs to lower and stiffen the suspension and you're good to go.
    Always run the oil one quart over for surge.

    The Lotus Elan weighed 1,300 pounds stock, with 105 hp. Not alot of weight to be removed,
    Chapman did the job right. Wicked fast on a tight course.

    The real deal was the Cobra, $6,000 new (like $30,000 now).
    Within the limits of 60's technology, a track ready hot rod in another league from what today's cars are now
    I wonder if the engines did a lot better on 60's tech tires.

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    BMW Master bawareca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rikgray View Post
    ...Todays cars are bloated expensive pigs...
    I was thinking yesterday, who can afford yo throw a $50k+ car off of a cliff? Even an unsubstantial damage can cost a lot in a modern car, or be a total loss.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rikgray View Post
    The mid 60's was the golden age of street sports cars that could be taken to the track.
    I didn't know you were such a Luddite Richard.

    The reason the 60's car's survived track use is because they were crushingly slow pieces of **** that were expected to break at frequent intervals. Lap records from most tracks that were around 30 years ago are comical. What an H prod car would run around WSIR in the 70's would be eclipsed by my Sienna while sipping a Latte. That is not hyperbole either.
    We're talking track prepped "sports cars" that would barely break 2 minutes there. A bone stock 2017 Miata would give a period accurate 427 Cobra a run for it's money at Buttonwillow. That the Miata could then be pointed to New York and expected to arrive w/o breakdowns, delivering it's occupants in heated seat, air conditioned, cruise controlled 40mpg, satellite radio entertained comfort is meaningful.
    The stock brakes would actually work too. All while delivering fewer emissions than the Cobra generates in the first 5 minutes of operation I might add.

    If one were to strip all the comfort and convenience features, crash safety, weather sealing and emissions equipment from a modern car, I'd venture to guess you would have a faster and cooler running car. Roughly the equivalent level of features as a 60's sports car but still more comfortable, safer, more reliable and yes, much, much faster.

    So no, the 60's were not the golden age. The golden age for auto enthusiasts is 3-5 years from now. Much past that I thnk regulation and market pressure really start to affect what manufactures can, and are even interested in developing for us gear heads.
    15 years from now, newly developed ICE performance cars will be no more. We'll all be the equivalent of geeky Linux users in a PC and Mac world.
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    Quote Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
    15 years from now, newly developed ICE performance cars will be no more. We'll all be the equivalent of geeky Linux users in a PC and Mac world.
    The funny part about that statement is that the geeky linux users are the ones developing the new automotive systems.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuntman View Post
    I would put much more $ that the RS could do 5 laps at Laguna, Thunderhill, Road America, etc... Due to the lack of super tight "club tracks" which have a lot of low speed corners and act like glorified autoX tracks -where S2Ks Excel
    .
    exccccccccccccuse me !! most here drive on "club tracks" !! never been to LeMan, let alone raced in one. so the standard should be tight "club tracks"

    I say keep the list simple..... BW 5 laps in 100F weather at 99% pace by this dude, Billy. screw everything else - don't care if engine dies of early death 6 months later, as long it doesn't die on the way home.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bawareca View Post
    I was thinking yesterday, who can afford yo throw a $50k+ car off of a cliff? Even an unsubstantial damage can cost a lot in a modern car, or be a total loss.
    4f4b347c119f374e7cc90fede2662de9.png
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    SuperMiata

    Aside from their cost I never understood why people race them.
    But obviously I just dont get it. -fatbillybob

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    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rikgray View Post
    The mid 60's was the golden age of street sports cars that could be taken to the track.
    Todays cars are bloated expensive pigs, with work arounds to avoid "limping".

    I put tens of thousands of hard fast miles on rough bumpy Mulholland in Sunbeam Alpine, MGA, MGB, Lotus Elan, with only one mechanical failure.
    A failure on Mulholland is more than an inconvenience. Others took their cars straight to the track with just the addition of a roll bar for SCCA.

    These cars could be bought used for almost nothing. They cost $2,000 new (like $10,000) now.
    No expensive, heavy, safety equipment, smog devices, air conditioners, crash bumpers, etc.

    Sunbeam and MGB weighed just over 2,000 pounds stock with around 100 hp.
    In an afternoon with some tools, a hole saw and a cutting torch you had an 1,800 pound race car.
    Fill the shocks with STP and heat one coil of the springs to lower and stiffen the suspension and you're good to go.
    Always run the oil one quart over for surge.

    The Lotus Elan weighed 1,300 pounds stock, with 105 hp. Not alot of weight to be removed,
    Chapman did the job right. Wicked fast on a tight course.

    The real deal was the Cobra, $6,000 new (like $30,000 now).
    Within the limits of 60's technology, a track ready hot rod in another league from what today's cars are now
    personal experience: I took my old 2010 bone stone Prius to SOW, it had ZERO issues, I did something like 1:42s with passenger and track control kicking in every corner (probably would of done 1:28s without TC, but can't turn it off). and I bet Prius is faster around most tracks than 60s British Sports Car.

    I still remember in mid 80s, when I broke 2 minute at WSIR in a caged ITC (?) 510. That was a big deal back then (sub 2 minute at WSIR in the 80s is same as sub 2 at BW13 today). and those Sprite/MG were nowhere close to me.
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    17 GT350 !!
    08 M3 - Carmax warranty !!
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    Why no mention of the 15 WRX? It's not an STI but very capable track car. I've taken it out countless times and have had zero issues, where others with STI's have blown their motors at the track. Seen this happen at least 3 times in less than a year.
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    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fiftyunofifty View Post
    Why no mention of the 15 WRX? It's not an STI but very capable track car. I've taken it out countless times and have had zero issues, where others with STI's have blown their motors at the track. Seen this happen at least 3 times in less than a year.
    I will be the dick, first thing everyone wants to know is how fast you went on a track. they want to know if you are pushing the car hard.
    I am surprised you only saw 3 STI blew in a year, it tells me you only track once in last year
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    Supermiata S1, SuperMiata S2, Supermiata S3
    13 Tesla, ma: no engine !!
    17 GT350 !!
    08 M3 - Carmax warranty !!
    96 NSX
    06 EVO MR
    15 Mini Cooper S

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    WRX and STI both overheat badly and require extra cooling hardware for continuous lapping.

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    While it may be a great time for enthusiasts being able to buy off the shelf track ready cars I fear we are heading into the dark ages wrt enthusiasts being able to repair and modify their cars without professional help. The increasing integration of the various vehicle systems introduces an enormous amount of complexity into a car. It is rare to see a car these days that does not have very tight communication between the ABS, engine, power steering, chassis, and transmission control modules for both vehicle control and emissions management. This integration also raises interesting liability issues. For example, changing ride height potentially changes the location of the G and yaw sensors that communicate with these systems affecting the operation of ABS and traction control systems. Will the ABS/traction/yaw controls operate as the factory intended if the vehicle is raised or lowered? Special scanners are needed to communicate with these systems. These scanners are not the OBDII scanners that you can buy at Pep Boys and are well beyond reach of the typical enthusiast. Change your alignment? Most cars now require the steering angle sensor to be recalibrated if the alignment has changed. Technology has enabled new cars to have capabilities far beyond what was possible even just a few years ago but it does have a dark side. God bless the C5 Corvette and the NA/NB Miata for their simple construction and enthusiast friendly design.
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    Quote Originally Posted by markn View Post
    While it may be a great time for enthusiasts being able to buy off the shelf track ready cars I fear we are heading into the dark ages wrt enthusiasts being able to repair and modify their cars without professional help. The increasing integration of the various vehicle systems introduces an enormous amount of complexity into a car. It is rare to see a car these days that does not have very tight communication between the ABS, engine, power steering, chassis, and transmission control modules for both vehicle control and emissions management. This integration also raises interesting liability issues. For example, changing ride height potentially changes the location of the G and yaw sensors that communicate with these systems affecting the operation of ABS and traction control systems. Will the ABS/traction/yaw controls operate as the factory intended if the vehicle is raised or lowered? Special scanners are needed to communicate with these systems. These scanners are not the OBDII scanners that you can buy at Pep Boys and are well beyond reach of the typical enthusiast. Change your alignment? Most cars now require the steering angle sensor to be recalibrated if the alignment has changed. Technology has enabled new cars to have capabilities far beyond what was possible even just a few years ago but it does have a dark side. God bless the C5 Corvette and the NA/NB Miata for their simple construction and enthusiast friendly design.
    While I agree there is hope! In the American car aftermarket the braintrust has figured out how to hack into the PCM's and can line to tune out many of the features like TPMS tire pressure monitoring that puts a car in limp if the computer says the pressures are unsafe. Gone are the days when we could plug the tire monitors into a PVC pipe and air the tube up to 40PSI and just throw the tube and monitors in the trunk. OEM's are wise to that now. The problem comes when you have a porsche and even the porshofiles can't figure out how to get the incestuous systems out because there just isn't enough people attacking the problem. Forget it if you got a Ferrari. That's when entire cars are gutted and aftermarket ecus are used to build the racecars or there is factory support. Hope aside while these new modern cars are extreemtly capable on track and on street there is still a compromise. In racing the compromise is only up to what the rules will allow. So while the spool valve shocks work awesome on a new streetcar turned track weapon we are still seeing faster racecars with traditional multi-adjustable shocks making more power with afermarket headers and bigger wastegates where street and emission compromises are not an issue. Racing ABS and racing traction control and other electronics take racing to another level that not too many of us will ever see. So I'm still convinced that while the Camaro ZL1ILE is a track monster a base camaro with similar wings and splitter, similar engine build, and adjustable shocks and springs will be faster. You will just have to do the testing to get it there. The $50k difference from base to ZL1 1LE is a lot of racing parts exactly tailored to your compromises.

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    Default 60's

    The point I'm making about the 60's is that you could drive what you wanted, where you wanted, when you wanted.
    You could change any part of the car to make it fast, safe, wild, or fun.
    And in lots of places, you could drive as fast as you wanted.

    My neighbor drove her hubby's SCCA A Prod Corvette to the market,with straight pipes and Goodyear Blue Streaks.
    Other neighbors drove their track cars like Cheetah or Lola T70 around.
    I commuted to school in my SCCA D Prod TVR.

    You could buy a Lotus 7 kit for $1500.
    With the 130 hp Cortina engine in a 900 pound car it will still beat any Miata at Buttonwillow
    (if you take the front fenders off). (So would my Elva 7 CSR.)

    When McLaren brought their LeMans winning F1 to America in the 90's it gained 800 pounds to meet the regulations.

    Try changing things on a new car. Instant limp mode.
    Can't turn off traction control to have some fun?
    You don't own that new car. Didn't you read the End User License Agreement?

    Ask yourself, would rather drive a new Mustang or a Lola T70?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rikgray View Post
    Ask yourself, would rather drive a new Mustang or a Lola T70?
    To live with, GT350. Not even close. As a bucket list drive, sure Lola T70 or whatever unobtainium hypercar you can think of.

    Your argument seems to me pointed at regulation that allows us to drive race cars on the street more than how competent cars were 50 years ago vs todays best.
    I'd agree there were far fewer regs back then.

    Would I want my mom driving a 60's tech car? No way
    Would I rather drive to the track in a GT350 with nice stereo, comfy seats, CA, A/C on pump gas or a leaded race gas buring Lola T70 that is trying to kill me at all times? GT350
    Would I rather live in breathable air or the stuff I remember form the early 70's as a kid? I'll take today's air thank you.
    Would I rather run down to Autozone, Ford dealer or buy off Amazon from my phone for spare parts or send a telex to the Ghost of Eric Broadley in the UK for T70 spares then wait a month or so while his staff fabricates them? I'll take Amazon.

    There are cars that don't work on track. But there are plenty that work just fine, no mods neccessary. Regulations, nannies, complexity aside, I'll take an S2k or SS 1LE just the same way I'll keep my Galaxy S7. Works, and works well.
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    Aside from their cost I never understood why people race them.
    But obviously I just dont get it. -fatbillybob

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    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rikgray View Post
    Ask yourself, would rather drive a new Mustang or a Lola T70?
    yes, I Googled. I can crash x8 Mustang GT, and still come out ahead of 1 Lola T70
    Supermiata S1, SuperMiata S2, Supermiata S3
    13 Tesla, ma: no engine !!
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatbillybob View Post
    While I agree there is hope! In the American car aftermarket the braintrust has figured out how to hack into the PCM's and can line to tune out many of the features like TPMS tire pressure monitoring that puts a car in limp if the computer says the pressures are unsafe. Gone are the days when we could plug the tire monitors into a PVC pipe and air the tube up to 40PSI and just throw the tube and monitors in the trunk. OEM's are wise to that now. The problem comes when you have a porsche and even the porshofiles can't figure out how to get the incestuous systems out because there just isn't enough people attacking the problem. Forget it if you got a Ferrari. That's when entire cars are gutted and aftermarket ecus are used to build the racecars or there is factory support. Hope aside while these new modern cars are extreemtly capable on track and on street there is still a compromise. In racing the compromise is only up to what the rules will allow. So while the spool valve shocks work awesome on a new streetcar turned track weapon we are still seeing faster racecars with traditional multi-adjustable shocks making more power with afermarket headers and bigger wastegates where street and emission compromises are not an issue. Racing ABS and racing traction control and other electronics take racing to another level that not too many of us will ever see. So I'm still convinced that while the Camaro ZL1ILE is a track monster a base camaro with similar wings and splitter, similar engine build, and adjustable shocks and springs will be faster. You will just have to do the testing to get it there. The $50k difference from base to ZL1 1LE is a lot of racing parts exactly tailored to your compromises.
    Spool valves are also used on the new Ford GT, F1 cars, and most of the LMP & GT racecar field, among many other GT and touring car racing.. Not sure what you were trying to say...

    Also, paragraphs are your friend
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    Quote Originally Posted by JulioG View Post
    WRX and STI both overheat badly and require extra cooling hardware for continuous lapping.
    Not as bad as the STI. I have upgraded my TMIC and have an oil cooler and have run in temps over 100 and no issues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bellwilliam View Post
    yes, I Googled. I can crash x8 Mustang GT, and still come out ahead of 1 Lola T70
    The sticker price of a '65 V8 Mustang was $2,734.
    The sticker price of a '65 Lola T70 "The price would vary depending on the customer! but the price was somewhere between £2 and £3k GBP" Quote from English Dealer
    Not sure on the exchange rate, but about 2 to 1. So a Lola T70 was 1.5 to 2X the Mustang. A Shelby Mustang GT350 was probably the same cost as a Lola T70.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rikgray View Post
    The sticker price of a '65 V8 Mustang was $2,734.
    The sticker price of a '65 Lola T70 "The price would vary depending on the customer! but the price was somewhere between £2 and £3k GBP" Quote from English Dealer
    Not sure on the exchange rate, but about 2 to 1. So a Lola T70 was 1.5 to 2X the Mustang. A Shelby Mustang GT350 was probably the same cost as a Lola T70.
    When I was a kid, the thought of daily driving a fire breathing race car with no passive safety equipment, or amenities seemed liked a great idea. Then I grew up and realized those kinds of cars are best left on trailers and towed to race tracks.

    What really appeals to you is the lack of government regulations. Race cars still breathe fire, lack passive safety for street driving or any comfort amenities. The cars weren't better 50 years ago.

    One can buy a 2500# tube framed SRL (lighter NASCAR) with a bullet proof 700hp V8 set up for road course for about $25k. Such a car on modern tires would run rings around everything from 1967 except maybe an F1 car. Once again, I have no interest in driving that on the street.
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    Aside from their cost I never understood why people race them.
    But obviously I just dont get it. -fatbillybob

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