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Thread: This is golden age of trackable OEM cars...

  1. #21
    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tq3z View Post
    Here's a 1LE for 7000 less than MSRP.

    https://rennlist.com/forums/vehicle-...elow-msrp.html
    nice !!! you got to start buying cars for me...
    Supermiata S1, SuperMiata S2, Supermiata S3
    13 Tesla, ma: no engine !!
    17 GT350 !!
    08 M3 - Carmax warranty !!
    96 NSX
    06 EVO MR
    15 Mini Cooper S

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
    Agree. It's a shame that the manufacturers took so long to bring true track ready cars down under $100k for the proletariat. HPDE/ Track days sorta started in the late 80's but didn't really go big time until the early 00's. So it's taken roughly 12 years for the US mfr's to get it right.
    Porsche always had the GT3 but to be fair, it was a detuned version of a fully developed race car and well beyond the reach of the average enthusiast. Japan and the rest of Germany are still lagging. A fully track ready 370Z, or lightweight M2 would be sweet. How about a lightweight 86 with another 60 forced induction whp, crazy brakes and coolers everywhere.

    ZL1 1LE. To be fair the 1LE should have three separate entries. V6, SS and ZL1. Three separate drivetrain and aero packages. Kudos to Chevy for doing this. Sad that they can win Le Mans with the C6 a bunch of times and never delivered the track ready car we all hoped for. Love my GT350 but would have rather
    had a C6R clone. Not to be confused with that sticker speed C7R abomination they offered.

    86 overheats but the car itself works really well on track. ND gets scary hot diff/trans/oil temps but keeps going fast and doesn't shut down.

    You almost need two categories:

    Cars that Billy can drive for 5 laps on BW13CW on a 100° day without going into limp mode and throwing codes, losing brakes. We could call these TrackHQ Certified - Track Ready®
    vs
    Cars that merely work well on track but **** the bed after one lap on a warm day. We could call these TrackHQ Certified - Track Wannabe®

    The 370Z works pretty well for one lap on a cool day but ****s the bed past that. Probably most M cars fall into that category.
    Lol, ok:

    Cars that Billy can drive for 5 laps on BW13CW on a 100° day without going into limp mode and throwing codes, losing brakes. We could call these TrackHQ Certified - Track Ready®
    -GT350/R
    -2015-2016 Mustang GT Performance Package
    -5G Z28
    -6G V6 1LE, 6G V8 1LE, ZL1, ZL1 1LE (probably)
    -C7 Z51
    -Viper SRT/GTS/ACR/ACR-E
    -ND Miata
    -GT/FR86
    -Porsche GT4, GT3, Turbo/S, Cayman/S, 911/S
    -M3/4 (but way too much oversteer), M2
    -GTR
    -AMG GT/S/R
    -Focus RS - borderline at BW for 5 laps in 100*F. Might not make it...
    -Fiesta ST

    Cars that merely work well on track but **** the bed after one lap on a warm day. We could call these TrackHQ Certified - Track Wannabe®
    -Z06
    -Challenger Hellcat (faster than an M4 for 1 lap before losing its brakes)
    -2012-13 GT500 (loses brakes)
    -370Z
    -Civic Type R

    -How far are we going back? 2000? 2010? 2012? 2015? Are we going to talk about supercars?
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by bellwilliam View Post
    Brenda of Trakhq can make a ton of money !!! like Jeep's "trail rated" or CR's "recommended"

    categories:

    A - zero issue what soever, fluid change allowed.
    B - needs brake pads and/or tires and/or fluid change and/or etc....simple mods
    C - good for 1 lap in hot weather or 5 laps in cool weather or you are just slow
    D - good for beginners
    F - the rest
    Little more difficult to use your categorization since group 2 of Emilio's "Wannabe's" would fit C, yet D can encompass cars in A & B.

  4. #24
    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuntman View Post
    Lol, ok:

    Cars that Billy can drive for 5 laps on BW13CW on a 100° day without going into limp mode and throwing codes, losing brakes. We could call these TrackHQ Certified - Track Ready®
    -GT350/R
    -2015-2016 Mustang GT Performance Package
    -5G Z28
    -6G V6 1LE, 6G V8 1LE, ZL1, ZL1 1LE (probably)
    -C7 Z51
    -Viper SRT/GTS/ACR/ACR-E
    -ND Miata
    -GT/FR86
    -Porsche GT4, GT3, Turbo/S, Cayman/S, 911/S
    -M3/4 (but way too much oversteer), M2
    -GTR
    -AMG GT/S/R
    -Focus RS - borderline at BW for 5 laps in 100*F. Might not make it...
    -Fiesta ST
    I don't believe Billy can go 5 laps in M3/4 (heat), Focus RS (diff and heat), Fiesta ST (everything).
    Supermiata S1, SuperMiata S2, Supermiata S3
    13 Tesla, ma: no engine !!
    17 GT350 !!
    08 M3 - Carmax warranty !!
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    06 EVO MR
    15 Mini Cooper S

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    Senior Member JulioG's Avatar
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    The Fiesta ST is definitely not track ready. It will overheat the coolant after 1 lap at BRP in 75F weather and go into limp mode. It requires both an aftermarket radiator and a dedicated oil cooler to survive 20 minute sessions in summer. Also the front brakes are undersized and fade bad even with aftermarket pads and rotors, you can't do 20 minutes of hot laps until you go BBK. Source: been there, done that

    ND Miata doesn't even have a coolant-oil heat exchanger (NC did).. is it really trackable in 100F weather? Like the 86/BRZ, I'd expect it'd greatly benefit or even require an oil cooler to keep oil temps in the happy range.
    Last edited by JulioG; 09-06-2017 at 01:08 AM.
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    Kudos to Stuntman for taking the initiative to nominate a first shot at a list.

    I agree that the Fiesta ST would have heat challenges.
    With a skilled driver (pushing limits of the car) the RS would likely exit AWD mode due to excessive PTU temps.
    The Hellcat for me doesn't belong on the list because I don't think anyone would seriously consider as a road course fun car.

    As for the others, looks reasonable to me as I have no direct knowledge of limitations.

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    Administrator ucfbrett's Avatar
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    The Hellcat is fun, and you can drive it on a road course, but it's not "really" a track car. Dear God, is it fast, though.

  8. #28
    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif emilio700's Avatar
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    Your comments raise an important question. Namely that "too hot" needs to be defined. For a race engine, 240° oil temps is often a target peak temp. Few, if any production cars, even those at the top of the list will run that cool. Common targets exists for coolant, diff and trans temps as well. To determine less ambiguous good/no good delineators requires adding in a few other factors. Something like

    Does any fluid temp trigger a partial or complete limp mode in the OEM ECU within 5 laps?

    Cooling level

    Level 1 Cooling - Full race car
    -Coolant <235°
    -Engine oil <250°
    -Diff <240°
    -Trans <240°

    Level 2 Cooling - Enhanced
    -Coolant <250°
    -Engine oil <280°
    -Diff <270°
    -Trans <270°

    Level 3 Cooling - No additional cooling
    -Coolant >250°
    -Engine oil >280°
    -Diff >270°
    -Trans >270°

    The tricky part is that some cars with Tier 3 cooling run fine in the hottest weather, S2K and ND for example. Others with Tier 2 cooling like some M cars, shut down when they reach lower temps that are below what the ND and S2K run. So the concerns are both long term durability of the powertrain and also performance.
    While my C6Z never shuts down, it gets hot quickly and pulls so much timing that it's losing probably 90whp after a few laps. Still running with no CEL's though. Keep hammering on it and things get expensive real quick. My vote would be to put any car that enters limp mode into Level 3 regardless of how many extra heat exchangers the OEM installed.
    There is a gray area limp mode too. Some cars pulls so much timing and remap DBW that the car is losing 2-4s a lap although nothing on the dash is lit up. I call that Level 3 cooling. If it quickly gets hot enough to seriously affect lap times, it sux.
    Example: S2K is Level 2. M car that limps but has "enhanced" coolers, Level 3

    The GT350 falls into the Tier 2 category. Gets a bit hot but not enough to be a concern, doesn't go into limp mode. I'm guessing only the GT3 and Viper ACR earn Level 1

    Overall goal is to make a flow chart, Williams field of expertise for anyone to follow. I visualize problems like this as a vertical decision tree with unambiguous yes/no forks but whatever works.
    Last edited by emilio700; 09-06-2017 at 09:24 AM.
    WWW.949RACING.COM
    SuperMiata

    Aside from their cost I never understood why people race them.
    But obviously I just dont get it. -fatbillybob

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    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif emilio700's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuntman View Post
    -How far are we going back? 2000? 2010? 2012? 2015? Are we going to talk about supercars?
    Include everything. The purpose of the list, as I see it anyway, is to help define what Track Ready is and help folks decide on car projects.

    So the it is as useful to the Rich Guy that can afford a shiny new McLaren 570S as the Regular Guy contemplating a used 17 year old E46 M3. Obviously the Rich Guy could care less what a bunch of track rats, and one pro driver think about the trackability of a quarter million dollar supercar but we need to entertain ourselves. Plus including
    supercars helps quantify just how much progress has been made with <$90k cars. "My Camaro is better suited to track driving than your Ferrari!", lol.
    WWW.949RACING.COM
    SuperMiata

    Aside from their cost I never understood why people race them.
    But obviously I just dont get it. -fatbillybob

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    Quote Originally Posted by bellwilliam View Post
    I don't believe Billy can go 5 laps in M3/4 (heat), Focus RS (diff and heat), Fiesta ST (everything).
    M3/4 doesn't have any issues in the humid 100*F Florida weather, same for Fiesta ST in 100*F at altitude at the FPRS in Utah. Now the RS is questionable for 5 laps at BW in 100*F, but I'd be willing to bet $20 it would last 5 laps in 100*.

    Pretty much every racecar and modern street car I've driven have oil temps well over Emilio's 240* "racecar" oil temps. -more on the lines of 275-295*F.

    I don't know how you can out the gt350 into "tier 2" with limp moded M cars. The 359 will run and is designed to run continuously St those temps you're scared of and aren't familiar with. That's not a knock on the car when it doesn't go into limp mode, pull power, or slow down at all on track. It will point out the laps as good as any GT3.
    Last edited by Stuntman; 09-06-2017 at 10:36 AM.

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    BMW Master bawareca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bellwilliam View Post
    I don't want to believe Billy can go 5 laps in M3/4 (heat), Focus RS (diff and heat), Fiesta ST (everything).
    Fixed for you :-))
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    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif emilio700's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuntman View Post
    M3/4 doesn't have any issues in the humid 100*F Florida weather, same for Fiesta ST in 100*F at altitude at the FPRS in Utah. Now the RS is questionable for 5 laps at BW in 100*F, but I'd be willing to bet $20 it would last 5 laps in 100*.

    Pretty much every racecar and modern street car I've driven have oil temps well over Emilio's 240* "racecar" oil temps. -more on the lines of 275-295*F.

    I don't know how you can out the gt350 into "tier 2" with limp moded M cars. The 359 will run and is designed to run continuously St those temps you're scared of and aren't familiar with. That's not a knock on the car when it doesn't go into limp mode, pull power, or slow down at all on track. It will point out the laps as good as any GT3.
    Most engines are happiest with their oil around 240° so that's what I build my personal cars to. I don't have your experience with a wider variety of race cars so I base my criteria off that.

    M cars might start at Level 2 to start but get bumped to Level 3 because they limp. So limp mode is a correction factor. IOW, having factory installed auxiliary coolers does not guarantee it will survive a hot track day. On the flip side, not having any auxiliary coolers or ducting (S2K), doesn't mean it doesn't do it's job on track. The NA/NB Miatas run crazy high temps everywhere
    but do just fine on track once a big radiator is added. 300° + oil, diff an trans temps are pretty normal for a Miata.
    WWW.949RACING.COM
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    Aside from their cost I never understood why people race them.
    But obviously I just dont get it. -fatbillybob

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    Now the RS is questionable for 5 laps at BW in 100*F, but I'd be willing to bet $20 it would last 5 laps in 100*.
    That would be an interesting bet. We got the RS in limp mode within 12-15 minutes in a tight track config at Spring Mountain and subsequent session - at least 30 minutes to an hour later were MUCH shorter. To be fair, the config was such that the torque vectoring nannies were hard at work most of the time. The straights at BW may be sufficient for a small amount of drivetrain temp recovery.

    But this is all with an experienced track driver. Less experienced drivers will not have the car at its' limits as frequently and the nannies have less of a workload. So, the RS would be good/fun for a LOT of drivers - the trouble being that the more your skills progress, the more the car will start to let you down (drivetrain limp mode). Oh, and although it may not cause a limp mode, expect oil temps easily in the 300F range.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CoolTech View Post
    But this is all with an experienced track driver. Less experienced drivers will not have the car at its' limits as frequently and the nannies have less of a workload. So, the RS would be good/fun for a LOT of drivers - the trouble being that the more your skills progress, the more the car will start to let you down (drivetrain limp mode). Oh, and although it may not cause a limp mode, expect oil temps easily in the 300F range.
    My experience has been that less skilled, but equally aggressive drivers tend to have the stability control nannies (diff/brakes/DBW/shocks) going more often than a more skilled driver.

    More heat from SC systems. Flip side is more skilled driver spends more time at WOT and generates more braking force in shorter period from higher speed. So which is harder on the car is sorta driver, track and car dependent. I recall stories of recent VW Golf DSC applying the brakes to stabilizes so much that it could run out of brakes when you weren't even using them.
    Last edited by emilio700; 09-06-2017 at 02:54 PM.
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    Aside from their cost I never understood why people race them.
    But obviously I just dont get it. -fatbillybob

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    Senior Member fatbillybob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuntman View Post

    Pretty much every racecar and modern street car I've driven have oil temps well over Emilio's 240* "racecar" oil temps. -more on the lines of 275-295*F.
    Gee I thought there was something wrong with what I was doing. My vette with giant ron davis radiator lives at 280F and maybe 260F on the coldest day of the year. I'm not sure if Oli and ST2 vette gang have gotten to 240F even with swiss cheese vented hoods which are not legal for my race class.


    I also think a bit differently. There are many cars today that are impossible to delete the nannies from TPMS to limp and engine retard with high engine temps. To me the best modern trackcar is the one where I can turn EVERYTHING OFF! That is the definition of track ready to me. I hate having to flick switches to get out of a nanny default mode. I hate to be in the middle of a race and try to hold my traction control button for 5secs looking at my display to see if TC is off because I forgot to turn it off on the grid. I hate porsche PSM which you can turn off then when you do something outside the algorithim it turns back ON! I like how my C5Z06 brakes are balanced enough that if I pull the ABS fuse the brakes work perfect just no ABS function. I like that my C5Z06 is not smart enough to put itself into limp mode. I hate lane departure warnings and automatic braking. I want to nearly bump draft you. Honestly if 90% of the inability to track is proper driveline cooling those are pretty easy things to solve.
    Last edited by fatbillybob; 09-06-2017 at 07:27 PM.
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    Chest hair required Olitho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatbillybob View Post
    Gee I thought there was something wrong with what I was doing. My vette with giant ron davis radiator lives at 280F and maybe 260F on the coldest day of the year. I would love to figure out how to get it to 240F. I'm not sure if Oli and gang have gotten to 240F even with swiss cheese vented hoods which are not legal for my race class.
    My race car lives around 210-220 on water, even on hot days. The oil slowly creeps up in a race from 240ish and settles in around 260-270ish. I think that is pretty normal for the LS engines. I have been told they are good for over 300, but that is not normal. I have also been told that the synthetic oil starts breaking down at temps over 330 degrees.
    To the right of The Sheriff. Isn't everyone?

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    Quote Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
    Most engines are happiest with their oil around 240° so that's what I build my personal cars to. I don't have your experience with a wider variety of race cars so I base my criteria off that.

    M cars might start at Level 2 to start but get bumped to Level 3 because they limp. So limp mode is a correction factor. IOW, having factory installed auxiliary coolers does not guarantee it will survive a hot track day. On the flip side, not having any auxiliary coolers or ducting (S2K), doesn't mean it doesn't do it's job on track. The NA/NB Miatas run crazy high temps everywhere
    but do just fine on track once a big radiator is added. 300° + oil, diff an trans temps are pretty normal for a Miata.
    How does that make any sense? "Just because car has coolers doesn't mean it will survive" yet "S2K & Miata with no coolers and 300*F oil is fine for tracking"???

    The 350TP/R runs all day long at 295*F oil with no issues. Diff and trans temps are much lower. However a Miata/s2k and Mustang GTPP run 300* trans and diff temps and slowly kill the oil and the trans/diffs if not flushed routinely.

    The RS' diff works by slipping the clutches. Tighter tracks like autocrosser, Spring Mtn, SOW, etc... Will work the diff and overheat sooner than a larger track with less tight turns like BW, and especially much faster "real" tracks. BW is borderline which is why I would put $ that it can last 5 laps, especially driven properly, and I would put much more $ that the RS could do 5 laps at Laguna, Thunderhill, Road America, etc... Due to the lack of super tight "club tracks" which have a lot of low speed corners and act like glorified autoX tracks -where S2Ks Excel

    The fiesta ST holds up very well with no overheating issues in the FPRS in Utah. The same can't be said for the Focus ST.

    I raced a relatively stock S54 i-6 m3 motor at 300-310*F with Mobil 1 0W40 / 15w50 mix in a 6hr grand am cup race and most of the season with no issues.
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    Senior Member fatbillybob's Avatar
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    so what do you do about a hot engine? When my vette was a street car it used 5-30W oil and ran at 200 something degrees. I forget the exact temp now. So my engine runs at 280F under race conditions. I looked at the viscosity of the 5-30 oil at street temps and picked an oil grade that matched the viscosity at 280F. Well my motor never blew up and that is my only datapoint. I had a discussion about what I did with a Mobil1 racing engineer and he looked at me like I was the biggest moron he had ever seen. I'm still being a moron with my oil selection. t

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    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif emilio700's Avatar
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    I'm just asking the questions. I don't have all the answers. My opinions are based on my personal experience which differs from everyone else here. That's why it's useful for everyone to share their experiences.

    My opinion remains the same. The S2k simply does survive. There's a million data points showing that. It also has no auxiliary coolers. So you can't use the presence of factory-installed coolers as a necessary ingredient to be track ready.
    Conversely there are cars that have auxiliary coolers that don't work well on track. My point is how the car actually works is more than relevant to the goal of this thread than the bullet points used for marketing the car.
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    But obviously I just dont get it. -fatbillybob

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    BMW Master bawareca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatbillybob View Post
    so what do you do about a hot engine? t
    A proper oil, like Motul 300v-esther based race oil, will start losing viscosity, i.e. thermal breakdown, at around 180C which is around 350F. If your oil got this hot you have many other problems anyway. For a modern engine up to around 320F would not cause imminent destruction.
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