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Thread: Fatality at Buttonwillow

  1. #121
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    It always sucks hearing about stuff like this, and it makes it so much harder when a young family is involved. My deepest condolences to his family and friends.

    Many very good points have been made here. And suddenly I feel even more content driving my ~125 hp miata on 205 street tires, and less need to add more rubber, aero, etc. to drop lap times and increase speed. In my case (non full-containment seat and no hans, track days only) I also feel like not driving 10/10ths certainly helps as well. I do plan on getting a pair of hans for my wife and I soon though.
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    Friends of Ivo - any good stories to share? Those times he came through for you, or had a good moment?

    Someone should start a thread to celebrate his life and contributions. By all accounts he was a good guy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hakeem View Post
    This seems to be a racket. Those of us with older FIA-only certified devices don't ever need to get them re-certified, at least as I understand it. Only the newer devices with the SFI sticker have to be re-certified every 2 years.
    SCCA does not age out HNR, seats, or window nets for Club Racing, even though SFI/FIA give them an expiration date. I do believe some other groups do enforce those dates.

  4. #124
    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olitho View Post
    I am wondering what kind of injury would cause this on a side impact. Bleeding from the ears suggests to me a head injury and from the mouth could be from head and sinus injuries or lung/torso injury. I am not medically trained at all so this is pure conjecture.

    I am going to write to Brent Jackson and ask him if he will pontificate to help us learn and understand.
    Bleeding profusely from the mouth could simply be "bit tongue half off". Not like we wear mouthpieces (although I have considered it on dirt).
    Last edited by robburgoon; 12-08-2015 at 10:35 AM.

  5. #125
    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RacerJason99 View Post
    SCCA does not age out HNR, seats, or window nets for Club Racing, even though SFI/FIA give them an expiration date.
    that's good to know. anyone knows who enforce those dates ?
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    Master of Disaster SteveLevin's Avatar
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    I've been following the thread but might have missed something... does anyone know if the fatality was caused by the impact G loading (for example, breaking the neck from the force of the head+helmet movement) or by actual physical impact with parts of the car and/or barriers?

    Steve

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by bellwilliam View Post
    that's good to know. anyone knows who enforce those dates ?
    NASA does

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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveLevin View Post
    I've been following the thread but might have missed something... does anyone know if the fatality was caused by the impact G loading (for example, breaking the neck from the force of the head+helmet movement) or by actual physical impact with parts of the car and/or barriers?

    Steve
    Given the impact was on the passenger side, I'm guessing the cause of death was from neck snap.

  9. #129
    Senior Member suki101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanB View Post
    Friends of Ivo - any good stories to share? Those times he came through for you, or had a good moment?

    Someone should start a thread to celebrate his life and contributions. By all accounts he was a good guy.
    In the early 2000’s Ivo and his brother were tracking their pair of white VW Sciroccos. I had meet him prior but the first time I really hung out with him was at SOW at a Speed Trial Event (I think). I was driving a GTI and he came over after coming off track and introduced himself and we started talking shop. Ended up hanging out the entire event and he even helped as I changed one of the axles on my buddy’s Jetta. A true car guy that loved to share his passion with others, he will be missed.

  10. #130
    Senior Member fatbillybob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RacerJason99 View Post
    SCCA does not age out HNR, seats, or window nets for Club Racing, even though SFI/FIA give them an expiration date. I do believe some other groups do enforce those dates.
    Not true. SCCA is following conventional wisdom. You can buy several HNR with FIA or SFI or both SFI AND FIA tags. If your device has FIA tags it does not need recertification. These device are the same but you pay more with FIA tag. If your device has SFI tag only then you need recertification every 2 years.

    This is the same issue with SFI rated harnesses vs. 10 year FIA rated harness which costs more.

    You will find SFI only rated appliances are cheaper but more costly in long run.

    FIA seats that age out need back brace.

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by SDSUsnowboards View Post
    I'm sorry for your loss, and I disagree with you.

    If one CAN NEVER BE TOO SAFE, then one should stay home and never leave, because most unnatural deaths occur outside of the home. If one must leave his home, then one should take public transportation because it is the safest form of transport other than flying. If one must drive a personal car, then one most definitely should not take that car to a race track, because racing is a dangerous activity that could result in death.

    See what I did there? Obviously one can be too safe, and how safe one must be is a matter of degree, and measured subjectively. It's a personal choice made by everyone, dictated by their own comfort in the idea they might not come home--or their denial that they might not come home. It may be had to believe, but some people don't mind the idea of dying, while others are scared to death of it. Your personal standard of safety is not the objective measure by which all others should be held.

    Others in this thread keep citing the need for intervention in order to prevent the costs of the sport from rising. I see this as an unfounded fear (and fear mongering), because those people are unable to cite either an increase in the fatality rate or a steep hike in rates caused by the current fatality rate. There is no reason to expect there will be a steep hike in costs if the fatality rate stays where it's been, and as far as I know there is no pattern showing an increase in fatality rates.

    Just to be clear, I'm only arguing against setting forth global requirements that all organizations must follow, or be pressured into following, that are more strict that the minimum requirements set forth right now.

    Changing topic, What can one do to mitigate side impacts? So far I've seen in this thread:
    1. full containment seat
    2. head and neck restraint?

    While I was researching something I came across what NASCAR is doing: foam cell between door bars and cage to form a crash structure. It's designed to absorb energy in a side impact. It seems to be this, in combination with a full containment seat, is the only way to prevent Ivo's death. Maybe some of you should look into doing this on your own cars, and advising others on how to do the same. I wouldn't know where to begin.
    Yes I see what you did there and it is a ridiculous comparison. Obviously we are motorsport drivers. We don't sit inside and hide, most people don't. However I think if you are going to do anything, take EVERY safety precaution you can. I didn't put my opinion here to argue or to say that everyone should agree with my point of view. I put it here in hopes of even one person reading this and saving someone's life. There are certain things that I truly believe cost should be irrelevant, safety one of those things. Someone else earlier pointed out that if you are thinking about skimping on safety equipment, you shouldn't be racing your car, endangering your life AND potentially the lives of others. I at no point said that there should be a global standard of safety equipment. I was making a plea with my fellow drivers to be smart and to protect themselves. I disagree that some people are not afraid of dying. I just think that they haven't seen it enough or been close enough.

    I agree with you. I think it would be too much of a cost hike to expect various track event companies to supply or demand certain types of safety equipment. It's not the companies responsibility to provide you with the relevant safety equipment, though conveniently they offer helmets. It's the responsibility of the driver to know what is required. This argument is not a personal one my friend purely one of policy, and in my experience, expecting that level of safety equipment isn't going to hurt anybody.

    On to the second topic, granted you don't know what you need until you don't have it. Unfortunate. I for one ordered myself and FIA sanctioned HANS restraint. That's just me. There are less expensive solutions that work well.
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  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatbillybob View Post
    Not true. SCCA is following conventional wisdom. You can buy several HNR with FIA or SFI or both SFI AND FIA tags. If your device has FIA tags it does not need recertification. These device are the same but you pay more with FIA tag. If your device has SFI tag only then you need recertification every 2 years.

    This is the same issue with SFI rated harnesses vs. 10 year FIA rated harness which costs more.

    You will find SFI only rated appliances are cheaper but more costly in long run.

    FIA seats that age out need back brace.
    Impressive, you managed to get every one of those wrong.

    SFI rates a harness for 3 years, SCCA allows it to be used for five. GCR passage 9.3.19.E.1: Restraint systems meeting SFI 16.1 or 16.5 shall bear a dated SFI Spec label. The certification indicated by this label shall expire on December 31st of the
    5th year after the date of manufacture as indicated by the label. If for example the manufacture date is 2014 the fifth year after the date of manufacture is 2019.

    An FIA harness is rated for five years as well, not ten.

    FIA gives an expiration date for seats, but SCCA does not enforce this. It was considered back in 2010 (read the June and Aug Fastrack) but SCCA realized they were not qualified to instruct members to modify an FIA seat.

    While SCCA does require that your HNR be an SFI or FIA device, it does not recognize the expiration dates, and does not require them to be re-certified. The same is true for window nets.
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  13. #133
    dirty smack talker hakeem's Avatar
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    Great info, thanks RacerJason. Is there any research that exists on how age affects something like a composite seat?

  14. #134
    The Real Captain Slow Red_5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red_5 View Post
    I'm pretty sure my NecksGen is good for 5 years before recertification. My DefeNder was good for 5 years but then needed newer fireproof straps. The cost was enough to nudge me to upgrade to the Necksgen - Plus they sweetened the deal.

    Edit: All SFI certified head and neck restraints have a 5 year recertification. Necksgen charges $15 plus parts and shipping.

    http://www.necksgen.com/faq/

    "Do you do a 5 year recertification?
    Yes, SFI 38.1 now requires a recertification after 5 years. The recertification will cost $15 plus parts and shipping."
    Where are you guys getting the 2 year recertification for SFI head and neck restraints? I posted this earlier in the thread but it seems to have been missed.

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by bronson91 View Post
    Yes I see what you did there and it is a ridiculous comparison. Obviously we are motorsport drivers. We don't sit inside and hide, most people don't. However I think if you are going to do anything, take EVERY safety precaution you can. I didn't put my opinion here to argue or to say that everyone should agree with my point of view. I put it here in hopes of even one person reading this and saving someone's life. There are certain things that I truly believe cost should be irrelevant, safety one of those things. Someone else earlier pointed out that if you are thinking about skimping on safety equipment, you shouldn't be racing your car, endangering your life AND potentially the lives of others. I at no point said that there should be a global standard of safety equipment. I was making a plea with my fellow drivers to be smart and to protect themselves. I disagree that some people are not afraid of dying. I just think that they haven't seen it enough or been close enough.

    I agree with you. I think it would be too much of a cost hike to expect various track event companies to supply or demand certain types of safety equipment. It's not the companies responsibility to provide you with the relevant safety equipment, though conveniently they offer helmets. It's the responsibility of the driver to know what is required. This argument is not a personal one my friend purely one of policy, and in my experience, expecting that level of safety equipment isn't going to hurt anybody.

    On to the second topic, granted you don't know what you need until you don't have it. Unfortunate. I for one ordered myself and FIA sanctioned HANS restraint. That's just me. There are less expensive solutions that work well.
    I stand by my comparison. We agree on the one thing that matters most: policy.
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  16. #136
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    Safety is simple. We're all in this together. Your choices as a driver effect everyone else. I won't presume to know the circumstances of the tragedy on Sunday, so I am speaking broadly here - nothing to do with this incident.

    Let's talk maths. Say you have a ~1/10,000 chance of being injured in an on track incident over the course of a year of events. Odds are in your favor that you'll be a lucky one, year after year. Now consider the organizers, especially national organizations like NASA and SCCA with many events and hundreds of subscribers. It's a certainty that some number of their participants will be injured in an on track incident each year, even a fatality (hopefully rarely). It doesn't change anything if it's me, you, or someone else. It's definitely going to be someone. That's heartache, time, and energy pulled from the organization and its membership. One could coldly say that's the cost of doing business. That's dodging the issue. Plus I don't know of any organization that would buy into that.

    Keeping you safe is also a matter of keeping everyone safe so we can all continue to enjoy the sport we love. If we're talking about the minimum per the requirements than we're having the wrong discussion. As many have said here, education is a big part of that (we're all still learning, and technology advances come every year).

    It's a privilege to be on track and it's the personal responsibility of each of us to minimize our risks for ourselves, family, friends, and racing organizations. We're all counting on each other to make good choices. The unknown risks are bad enough, the least we can do is address the known risks in our control.
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    Really sorry to hear this, it's a little hard to believe. While racing obviously entails risk fatalities are actually pretty rare and for it to happen to someone you know makes it all the more difficult to accept, especially someone as experienced and as nice a guy as Ivo. I imagine stopping that abruptly at that speed could have caused a number of injuries including traumatic brain injury, I'd be surprised if the passenger will even be able to recall what happened. I met Ivo a couple years ago, I have a Subaru and through sheer luck happened to move within walking distance of Ivo's shop (Renner). No matter how busy he was he always took the time to answer my numerous questions and was just a very nice, mellow guy that always seemed to be working..he even put up with my calling him "I"vo for months (it's pronounced "E"vo). I'd been looking forward to getting my car prepared for the track and he's been advising me along the way. Ironically enough he was partly responsible for my deciding to sell my race bike (which I was hardly using anymore), telling me "with age comes a cage". Monday I believe would have been his birthday.
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  18. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by SDSUsnowboards View Post
    I stand by my comparison. We agree on the one thing that matters most: policy.
    With you 100% my friend. It's all about safety and education. Be safe out there.

  19. #139
    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red_5 View Post
    Where are you guys getting the 2 year recertification for SFI head and neck restraints? I posted this earlier in the thread but it seems to have been missed.
    You are correct. The new SFI 38.1 standard for head and neck restraint is 5 years.

    How Long Until My Racing Safety Equipment Expires? - OG Racing Blog

    There has been a recent change in the already contentious SFI 38.1 Head & Neck rating that requires a re-inspection of the device every 5 years. Usually this amounts to a visual inspection by the manufacturer and replacing the tethers. As these inspections are typically completed by the manufacturer, be sure to contact them for more information. Just like seats, head and neck restraints are also often damaged in crashes. Make sure to get them inspected by someone qualified if you have any doubts on your device’s safety

    Window nets usually have different expiration dates based on what organization you are racing under. Typically, a 2-year range is what’s acceptable for SFI-rated nets; but this can vary depending on the sanctioning body. For instance, the SCCA doesn’t even check dates on window nets.

    .
    Last edited by bellwilliam; 12-08-2015 at 03:02 PM.
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  20. #140
    I wanna go fast! thepass's Avatar
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    Yep, got my defNder re-certified for 5 years last year.

    There is a lot of talk here about w2w organization's requirements (understandably so as a lot of the participants here do w2w), but the problem in question (if any) is HPDE events, where the requirements are very, very minimal. Of the deaths listed previously in this thread, looks like all or most of those were HPDE, not w2w. Discussion over expiration dates, seat-back braces, etc. etc. are all missing the point - that the injuries and deaths are mostly happening at the HPDE level where the only requirements to be on-track are:

    Helmet (Snell/DOT, within date)
    Roll bar (only if convertible, most local orgs don't specify any specs)
    5/6pt harness or ASM 4pt (if stock belt removed)

    I would like to see HPDE orgs add requirements aimed at improper/incomplete safety systems. Something like if you render the factory safety system useless (removal of airbag and/or 3pt seatbelt) then you must have 5/6pt harness, fixed-back seat, and HNRS. No additional burden placed on those with low budgets, they can just stick to the stock belt/airbag until they can afford the bare minimum alternative safety system. But of course, the subject of implementing any further safety requirements has been beaten to death previously by people on both sides of the subject...
    Last edited by thepass; 12-08-2015 at 03:14 PM.
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