+ Reply to Thread
Page 6 of 13 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 LastLast
Results 101 to 120 of 247
Like Tree297Likes

Thread: Fatality at Buttonwillow

  1. #101
    Chest hair required Olitho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    5,236
    Liked
    2344 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SDSUsnowboards View Post
    Those things that can be improved should not be improved if they required drivers to purchase things, or prep their car in a different way beyond what they are already required to do.
    Hi Everyone at TrackHQ. I am a brand new member and I am enthusiastic about going to the track.

    I am 18 years old and I just graduated from high school. I run the french fry machine at McDonalds and I don't have much money. I just got my 1992 Civic running and the tires are kind of bald, but I am one son-of-a-***** fast driver. Last weekend I passed a Ferrari on a blind curve because he was too much of a pussy to drive fast.

    This weekend is my first track event. I am looking to go to track finally. I only had enough money for the $149 registration, but not enough for a helmet. It is either buy a helmet or drive. Helmet schmelmet. Rules shmules. I am now 18 and old enough to make my own decisions. Helmets were once not used in auto racing and I don't think I need one, especially since I am so *****in' behind the wheel. Emilio and William, get ready to point me by.
    To the right of The Sheriff. Isn't everyone?

  2. #102
    Senior Member JulioG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    130
    Liked
    64 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 48yota View Post
    Also put on some long pants and shirts and nomex gloves. I have seen to many drive with shorts, tank tops, and even sandals...
    Agreed:

  3. #103
    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif emilio700's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    3,767
    Liked
    2589 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by winders View Post
    .. If you are willing to take shortcuts regarding your own safety, who knows what shortcuts you might take with the safety of others on the track around you. Yes, you can say would never do that, but I have a hard time believing you consider your life less important than other people's.
    First off, condolences the family, friends and employees at Renner. By all accounts Ivo had a lasting and positive influence on everyone around him.

    To Winder's point:
    In my 20 odd years of playing on race track, the sad reality is the drivers that are willing to take shortcuts with their own safety are always the most likely to take shortcuts with mine.

    Seth, you couldn't be more wrong. A plain jane but completely unmodified 5 year old car that's worth $10k that some kid is still making payments on is safer than a 20yr old $5k car with all of its passive safety bypassed/removed and inappropriate/incorrectly/no installed safety equipment installed in it's place and $10k worth of go fast parts. It is a privilege. Just like the idiots that race on public streets, the reason is they are too cheap, selfish and lazy to properly prepare for a race track. If a person can't afford to do it right, I don't think they should. Because I might be the one that pays the price for their mistakes. This has no bearing on the recent events as I have no knowledge of the particulars. More in response to comments suggesting we let Darwin sort it out.
    WWW.949RACING.COM
    SuperMiata

    Aside from their cost I never understood why people race them.
    But obviously I just dont get it. -fatbillybob

  4. #104
    Not Certified Slow SDSUsnowboards's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Orange County
    Posts
    1,835
    Liked
    817 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Olitho View Post
    Hi Everyone at TrackHQ. I am a brand new member and I am enthusiastic about going to the track.

    I am 18 years old and I just graduated from high school. I run the french fry machine at McDonalds and I don't have much money. I just got my 1992 Civic running and the tires are kind of bald, but I am one son-of-a-***** fast driver. Last weekend I passed a Ferrari on a blind curve because he was too much of a pussy to drive fast.

    This weekend is my first track event. I am looking to go to track finally. I only had enough money for the $149 registration, but not enough for a helmet. It is either buy a helmet or drive. Helmet schmelmet. Rules shmules. I am now 18 and old enough to make my own decisions. Helmets were once not used in auto racing and I don't think I need one, especially since I am so *****in' behind the wheel. Emilio and William, get ready to point me by.
    Hilarious as always, but no one here is advocating breaking rules currently in place. The rules we have now are good and represent a reasonable base-line that results in very few deaths in an extremely dangerous sport.
    2001 MR2-Eleven
    Experience Points: 21
    Youtube Channel.

  5. #105
    Not Certified Slow SDSUsnowboards's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Orange County
    Posts
    1,835
    Liked
    817 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
    First off, condolences the family, friends and employees at Renner. By all accounts Ivo had a lasting and positive influence on everyone around him.

    To Winder's point:
    In my 20 odd years of playing on race track, the sad reality is the drivers that are willing to take shortcuts with their own safety are always the most likely to take shortcuts with mine.

    Seth, you couldn't be more wrong. A plain jane but completely unmodified 5 year old car that's worth $10k that some kid is still making payments on is safer than a 20yr old $5k car with all of its passive safety bypassed/removed and inappropriate/incorrectly/no installed safety equipment installed in it's place and $10k worth of go fast parts. It is a privilege. Just like the idiots that race on public streets, the reason is they are too cheap, selfish and lazy to properly prepare for a race track. If a person can't afford to do it right, I don't think they should. Because I might be the one that pays the price for their mistakes. This has no bearing on the recent events as I have no knowledge of the particulars. More in response to comments suggesting we let Darwin sort it out.
    I respect your input Emilio, and maybe you missed my stealth edit. Can you elaborate on what's preventing you from running only those organizations which have minimum requirements to ensure everyone is "doing it right" so that you can stay safe?
    2001 MR2-Eleven
    Experience Points: 21
    Youtube Channel.

  6. #106
    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif emilio700's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    3,767
    Liked
    2589 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SDSUsnowboards View Post
    I respect your input Emilio, and maybe you missed my stealth edit. Can you elaborate on what's preventing you from running only those organizations which have minimum requirements to ensure everyone is "doing it right" so that you can stay safe?
    Organization, plain and simple. I choose to run with a promoter that is far more organized and takes my safety more seriously than some other promoters. Not wanting for this thread to descend in a promoter bashing thing, I'll simply say that I vote with my dollars.
    Those who are either unaware of the relative dangers they are exposing themselves to, or know and are OK with it to save a few bucks, perpetuate a situation that in very real terms, could have a lasting impact on my, and your affordable access to these facilities for these activities. So yes, I advocate better awareness and judgement through education and mentorship. I take a personal responsibility in the race series I run to see that we not only meet, but exceed industry standards for safety whenever possible. For those that choose to participate in HPDE elsewhere, I simply hope they learn and use good judgement.
    WWW.949RACING.COM
    SuperMiata

    Aside from their cost I never understood why people race them.
    But obviously I just dont get it. -fatbillybob

  7. #107
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Posts
    4
    Liked
    13 times

    Default

    Ivo was a friend of mine. Though I do thoroughly respect everyone's opinion, your opinion isn't the argument.

    SAFETY IS NOT A MATTER OF OPINION, style or preference. Safety is a matter of how badly do you want to go home after your track day? It's as simple as that. YOU CAN NEVER BE TOO SAFE.

    I've been in the car family for 15-20 years and have heard of countless people getting hurt and a few even have passed unfortunately. No one ever walked away from an accident saying they were too safe. Unfortunately another of our motorsport brothers had to pass to remind us.

    Make a commitment to yourself, buy something TODAY that will make you SAFER in the car tomorrow. NOT FASTER. S A F E R. PLEASE, PLEASE.

    I love the motorsport family, I'm sure there are some of you out there that do also. Let's learn from IVO's kind and generous nature, take it upon yourself if you see one of our brothers or sisters less than safely equipped. Educate.
    Last edited by bronson91; 12-07-2015 at 07:48 PM.

  8. #108
    Senior Member granth's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    670
    Liked
    145 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
    Organization, plain and simple. I choose to run with a promoter that is far more organized and takes my safety more seriously than some other promoters.
    I would say to large extent this is true, but every time we race up north in SPM the quality/requirements of the the corner workers far exceeds any of the events down south. I will not go into why I think this, you all have seen the difference....

  9. #109
    AROSC Comp. Director Slaysman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Manhattan Beach, CA
    Posts
    302
    Liked
    231 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bellwilliam View Post
    about track design / corner stations:

    not sure if I got this right. But I believe there have been 5 fatalities in past 10 years in socal HPDE.

    WSIR - T9, Mini Cooper roller over. driver died because he was partially ejected.
    SOW - driver and passenger hit a corner station (not sure if fatality or not. my memory is fading. but I remember it was one of worst accident till then)
    ACS - Porsche GT hitting a concrete wall on front straight after going off trying to avoid a Ferrari (entering track).
    CVR - passenger died (?) hitting a corner station
    BRP - yesterday. driver died hitting a corner station.

    4 of the 5 involve concrete. 3 of the 5 involved corner station. would gravel trap of worked ?
    Some years ago there was a fatal accident at Buttonwillow at lunchtime. Might have been a VARA event. The word was people were doing "parade laps", and an Austin Healy with a passenger rolled at Phil Hill. No roll bar or extra safety equipment? I believe both people died.
    Terry Watson
    AROSC Competition Director

  10. #110
    Senior Member fatbillybob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    by the beach
    Posts
    2,087
    Liked
    1720 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SDSUsnowboards View Post
    I'm going to be that guy who comes in and says safety is a personal choice, and ask (in vain) that you stop conspiring to legislate people's judgment and capacity for risk-taking.
    Quote Originally Posted by Olitho View Post
    we do have a legitimate interest in applying peer pressure for safer participation or someone else will legislate it for us... or strip it from us.

    Quote Originally Posted by SDSUsnowboards View Post
    no one here is advocating breaking rules currently in place. The rules we have now are good and represent a reasonable base-line that results in very few deaths in an extremely dangerous sport.
    Quote Originally Posted by bronson91 View Post
    Ivo was a friend of mine. Safety is a matter of how badly do you want to go home after your track day? Make a commitment to yourself, buy something TODAY that will make you SAFER in the car tomorrow. Educate.

    If you read my past posts Iím probably one of the biggest safety weenies here. In fact just a few days ago I was the one, and Moti concures, getting the builder of the really cool TransAm to redesign his rollcage doorbars. That said I totally agree with SDSUsnowboards. You canít legislate life based on knee-jerk reactions. We statistically have so few racing and HPDE deaths that one death makes for 6 pages on trackHQ and growing! This is not to downplay the significance of the loss of one of our brothers but if it was me please donít change all the safety rules because of me. The rules are fine. Statistically the outcomes are within normal limits. Insurance has not gone crazy in the industry. It has been fairly flat.
    Can more be done? Yes but at what unintended consequences? Years ago Oli started the petition to fix T9 at WSIR. Most agreed ďthe fill in the dirtĒ fix was easy yet nothing was done. I signed it. Should something be done? Maybe. WSIR or their insurance carrier has the statistics for their liability exposure based on claims history and reporting. They get ďxĒ untoward events per year. Why?
    Iím not a statistic because I know there is a drop off at T9. So I donít go 10/10ths through there. Lets say they pave the dip. Now I go 10/10ths loose it and crash in a newly unexpected way and add to negative statistics. Or maybe the worker who was supposed to fill the ditch forgot. Or the car before me pushed all the dirt out. So now I go through there thinking I can go 10/10ths loose it and have a problem. If on the other hand they donít fix it I will never drive 10/10ths through there. These are unintended consequences of doing what you think is right with no data and possibly no engineering.
    When these rare things happen the best thing we can do is leave the solution to professionals but educate ourselves based on the facts as we can best ascertain. Bronson said it. Educate. We individually need to get educated on safety and choose our compromises accordingly. There is no perfect solution.

  11. #111
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    45
    Liked
    1 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
    Organization, plain and simple. I choose to run with a promoter that is far more organized and takes my safety more seriously than some other promoters. Not wanting for this thread to descend in a promoter bashing thing, I'll simply say that I vote with my dollars.
    Those who are either unaware of the relative dangers they are exposing themselves to, or know and are OK with it to save a few bucks, perpetuate a situation that in very real terms, could have a lasting impact on my, and your affordable access to these facilities for these activities. So yes, I advocate better awareness and judgement through education and mentorship. I take a personal responsibility in the race series I run to see that we not only meet, but exceed industry standards for safety whenever possible. For those that choose to participate in HPDE elsewhere, I simply hope they learn and use good judgement.
    I couldn't agree more with what Emilio just said,I said this long ago that there would be an incident with this organization with their lack of discipline regarding their run groups and the total lack of experience of the drivers in general,posting an event for $100 will get you that,Ivo was a friend of mine

  12. #112
    AROSC Comp. Director Slaysman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Manhattan Beach, CA
    Posts
    302
    Liked
    231 times

    Default

    Our sympathies go out to the family and friends of Ivo.

    So many ways to run with this thread.

    Sorry, Seth, but you get boring with your rationalizing that you are going to run with only the safety equipment you can afford. Most of us make our cars as safe as we can, up to industry standards, THEN go racing. No one here wants to make that call to your emergency contact, ever.

    Even for the HPDE crowd, there is no excuse for not wearing protective clothing. AROSC has always required neck to wrists to ankles natural fiber clothing, and leather gloves. Who doesn't own a a pair of jeans and a long sleeve T-shirt? My first gloves were a pair of Home Depot $5 leather work gloves. Not having basic, minimum body protection is stupid, and so are the organizations who don't require it.

    Event organizers have a responsibility to "police" the driving, and monitor drivers on-track performance and abilities. We can and do exercise control over irresponsible driver on the track by black flagging them, and discussing with them the right things to do, getting them instruction, etc. Lack of event organizer involvement is a serious problem, and it is one of the main reasons we don't participate with some organizations. I've seen better track control at LeMons events than some track event organizers.

    Yes, the tracks should make some changes to make barriers "softer" and off-track excursions safer, and organizers and participants should keep up the pressure. Generally, we vote with our dollars, and as long as we keep renting the tracks, things won't likely change much.

    I have no idea of how well, or how poorly the car in the incident was set up. All cages are not created equal. All race seat fall into the same situation. I took a look at Ivo's first video at https://m.facebook.com/mark.renner.18 , and the first thing you see is a set of shoulder harnesses that are way too long.

    Time will tell all of the details of what happened, and if this tragic accident could have been prevented, or at least a fatality prevented.
    Terry Watson
    AROSC Competition Director

  13. #113
    Senior Member Gian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Ventura
    Posts
    1,239
    Liked
    481 times

    Default

    I have been on this rant before. Having the correct amount of safety equipment for the speed capabilities of the vehicle, IMHO, should be paramount.

    In this case it may or may not have been enough. Being an instructor for may years. Having someone ask you to show them what their car can do, sometimes scares me. Because, just before or as you drive on to the track, your asking what is done to the car/tires. Nobody tells you, well I just bought it and been driving it for 30k miles and never touched a thing except installing a the super charger with NOS and that boy racer fire bottle that's screwed into the plastic "A" pillar cover. Nope. You just you just get. It's ok, I just got a few things done to it.

    So your basically taking a chance with your life any time you go for a ride or drive a unknown car with unknown prep. On top of the regular risks of driving at 8/10 or close to it.
    This has crossed my mind once or twice. But I do enjoy it, and that's why I still do it.

    I'll say it again. I feel safety equipment should be based on the capability of speed/lap times.
    That's not a Typo, I just can't spell no so well.

  14. #114
    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    La Verne, California, United States
    Posts
    7,902
    Liked
    2531 times

    Default

    Sounds like passenger will make it. But I can't even imagine how the wife / sister is doing.

    From FB. Daniel

    I was first response on the wreck the whole time. I'm ExtremeSpeed Track Events staff. Lead driving instructor and student coordinator Sat & Sun at BW. Helped EMTs and Fire rescue with CPR and extraction of passenger.

    Hi guys. Please read other posts about the incident. It was a very nicely prepped M3 with full cage with X door bars, lots of triangulation. Five point 3" belts. Driver was well respected Pro who runs with GTA, REDLINE TA and Extreme Speed Track Events regularly Passenger was his brother-in law and car owner.

    Driver was pronounced dead at the scene. Very sad day and many are going to miss him. Passenger was Airlifted to hospital and is in Critical but stable condition and is expected to make it and recover.

    Justin, No Hans or other HNRS. Unfortunately SFI race seats but No Halo head protection. Professonally build cage. Because it was lateral square impact, from what I understand the Halo seat would have increased survivability. However the G loads were insane, looking at the car.
    Last edited by bellwilliam; 12-07-2015 at 11:12 PM.
    S1 Supermiata - 220whp
    13 Tesla, ma: no engine !!
    17 GT350R
    03 Miata Club Sport
    96 NSX
    06 EVO MR
    15 Mini Cooper S
    Beck 550 Spyder

  15. #115
    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    7,009
    Liked
    1495 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Slaysman View Post
    I've seen better track control at LeMons events than some track event organizers.
    That's not saying much. Lemons rules with an iron fist.

  16. #116
    Senior Member Silversprint's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    844
    Liked
    150 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by crzywhiteman01 View Post
    One thing I am curious to know is if the car was not on fire. Why were they taken out of the car ? You never move the patient in something like this that could be a major neck or spine injury. Also wonder if extreme speed even has extraction equipment. I know speed ventures does and pretty sure NASA events do as well just seems odd. Or they don't have any safety crews trained working there.

    Also if I remember correctly the Mini Cooper was using a harness bar and 4 points , chuckwalla crash was passenger death due to 4 point and submarining into the foot well.
    If they are not breathing you have to take them out for CPR. You put a c collar on then remove them from the car. If there is no pulse or breathing little else matters.
    MR2 Spyder 2zz turbo
    Mazda RX7 FD
    Porsche 911E

  17. #117
    Senior Member Silversprint's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    844
    Liked
    150 times

    Default

    I don't think the organizers can dictate greater safety equipment. Let's face it most of the new and young drivers are attracted to the lowest costing organization with the fewest safety requirements.

    Many of these drivers see this sport as a step up from street racing. They are either unaware of or don't care about the risk of bodily injury.

    If an organization tightens the safety requirements, another will pop up to take its place.

    In the end this is a business with organizers competing for drivers. Organization have to walk a fine line between safety and staying in business.

    Unfortunately in the end I only see lawyers and insurance companies forcing change in this sport or ending it all together. As long as organizers are making money and insurance companies are insuring them then nothing will change.

    As a driver you have to protect yourself. Organizers won't do it for you.
    Pure EvoIX, Zzyzx85 and bronson91 like this.
    MR2 Spyder 2zz turbo
    Mazda RX7 FD
    Porsche 911E

  18. #118
    mca
    mca is offline
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Orange County
    Posts
    8
    Liked
    1 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeColangelo View Post
    Besides fire, other good reasons to remove a patient from a car wreck fairly quickly includes cardiac arrest, respiratory arrest (breathing stopped), massive bleeding, etc. All of these can be quickly fatal if not treated in a timely fashion.

    Hopefully, when the pax was removed, his neck and spine were stabilized.

    Who removed the pax? Was there a Paramedic/EMT crew there?
    "Advanced Fire Rescue" was present the whole day, no ambulance on site. 2 crew members trained as EMT-B. They had hydraulic extrication tools (aka "Jaws of Life") and BLS medical equipment, including AED.

    Driver in cardiac arrest (no pulse, not breathing), bleeding heavily from mouth and ears. His condition necessitated immediate removal from the vehicle to initiate CPR.

    Passenger unconscious. Rescue crew was attempting to extricate when I arrived. By the time he was removed from the vehicle, fire department and paramedic ambulance had arrived to assume treatment. Proper precautions taken upon his removal from vehicle.

    From an extrication and medical treatment standpoint it appears the situation was handled correctly. Rescue crew responded quickly and took the necessary steps to initiate medical treatment and extrication.
    Pure EvoIX likes this.

  19. #119
    Chest hair required Olitho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    5,236
    Liked
    2344 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mca View Post
    Driver in cardiac arrest (no pulse, not breathing), bleeding heavily from mouth and ears. His condition necessitated immediate removal from the vehicle to initiate CPR.
    I am wondering what kind of injury would cause this on a side impact. Bleeding from the ears suggests to me a head injury and from the mouth could be from head and sinus injuries or lung/torso injury. I am not medically trained at all so this is pure conjecture.

    I am going to write to Brent Jackson and ask him if he will pontificate to help us learn and understand.
    SteveLevin and bawareca like this.
    To the right of The Sheriff. Isn't everyone?

  20. #120
    Not Certified Slow SDSUsnowboards's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Orange County
    Posts
    1,835
    Liked
    817 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bronson91 View Post
    Ivo was a friend of mine. Though I do thoroughly respect everyone's opinion, your opinion isn't the argument.

    SAFETY IS NOT A MATTER OF OPINION, style or preference. Safety is a matter of how badly do you want to go home after your track day? It's as simple as that. YOU CAN NEVER BE TOO SAFE.

    I've been in the car family for 15-20 years and have heard of countless people getting hurt and a few even have passed unfortunately. No one ever walked away from an accident saying they were too safe. Unfortunately another of our motorsport brothers had to pass to remind us.

    Make a commitment to yourself, buy something TODAY that will make you SAFER in the car tomorrow. NOT FASTER. S A F E R. PLEASE, PLEASE.

    I love the motorsport family, I'm sure there are some of you out there that do also. Let's learn from IVO's kind and generous nature, take it upon yourself if you see one of our brothers or sisters less than safely equipped. Educate.
    I'm sorry for your loss, and I disagree with you.

    If one CAN NEVER BE TOO SAFE, then one should stay home and never leave, because most unnatural deaths occur outside of the home. If one must leave his home, then one should take public transportation because it is the safest form of transport other than flying. If one must drive a personal car, then one most definitely should not take that car to a race track, because racing is a dangerous activity that could result in death.

    See what I did there? Obviously one can be too safe, and how safe one must be is a matter of degree, and measured subjectively. It's a personal choice made by everyone, dictated by their own comfort in the idea they might not come home--or their denial that they might not come home. It may be had to believe, but some people don't mind the idea of dying, while others are scared to death of it. Your personal standard of safety is not the objective measure by which all others should be held.

    Others in this thread keep citing the need for intervention in order to prevent the costs of the sport from rising. I see this as an unfounded fear (and fear mongering), because those people are unable to cite either an increase in the fatality rate or a steep hike in rates caused by the current fatality rate. There is no reason to expect there will be a steep hike in costs if the fatality rate stays where it's been, and as far as I know there is no pattern showing an increase in fatality rates.

    Just to be clear, I'm only arguing against setting forth global requirements that all organizations must follow, or be pressured into following, that are more strict that the minimum requirements set forth right now.

    Changing topic, What can one do to mitigate side impacts? So far I've seen in this thread:
    1. full containment seat
    2. head and neck restraint?

    While I was researching something I came across what NASCAR is doing: foam cell between door bars and cage to form a crash structure. It's designed to absorb energy in a side impact. It seems to be this, in combination with a full containment seat, is the only way to prevent Ivo's death. Maybe some of you should look into doing this on your own cars, and advising others on how to do the same. I wouldn't know where to begin.
    Last edited by SDSUsnowboards; 12-08-2015 at 09:18 AM.
    2001 MR2-Eleven
    Experience Points: 21
    Youtube Channel.

+ Reply to Thread
Page 6 of 13 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts