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Thread: Fatality at Buttonwillow

  1. #61
    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackbird View Post
    ^ This.
    Seen too many big wrecks on the retaining wall between the esses and Sunset.
    I've had a high speed off there before in my turbo car, straightened it and let it go.. the Zorro switchback is actually quite high at speed and the car went airborne but it was still straight and other than lots of shop vac action no harm was done.
    It's a pet peeve of mine at buttonwillow. I feel the alt configs need some tapering dirt maintained to decrease the shock of hitting pavement with two off.
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    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    question: does HANS do anything in side impact ? does it help even a little ?
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    Senior Member superpilun's Avatar
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    Slightly unrelated, but is there a reason organizations don't ban 4-point harnesses?

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    dirty smack talker hakeem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robburgoon View Post
    My two cents:
    Unless another car was involved, I don't think you can throw XS under the bus for "the event being out of control". As far as I'm concerned a single car incident like this doesn't have anything to do with the org hosting the event.

    I'm sure the driver who is used to driving powerful cars at buttonwillow was fully aware of the challenge the last ess presents.
    Perhaps not in this particular incident, but the behavior of the organization sets the tone for the entire event. Is sketchy passing OK? Two wheels off? Four? Do you get kicked out for repeated infractions?

    Maybe it doesn't matter, I don't know. But it feels like HPDE events should be controlled fairly tightly given the random nature of the participants and their equipment.

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    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superpilun View Post
    Slightly unrelated, but is there a reason organizations don't ban 4-point harnesses?
    I know SV does, but not clearly stated. It just say on self tech sheet, that if you have a 4 point belt, it needs to be signed off (to check if ASM or not)......
    some ignore that, some simply don't understand that part of the tech sheet.
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    Senior Member JulioG's Avatar
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    I don't think any HPDE organization outside of NASA/SCCA regularly techs the cars, safety gear rules aren't any good if they are not enforced.
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    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hakeem View Post
    Perhaps not in this particular incident, but the behavior of the organization sets the tone for the entire event. Is sketchy passing OK? Two wheels off? Four? Do you get kicked out for repeated infractions?

    Maybe it doesn't matter, I don't know. But it feels like HPDE events should be controlled fairly tightly given the random nature of the participants and their equipment.
    I see it as their job to keep people from ruining each others day, and to a lesser extent, keeping the noobs from going splat. Once folks are in the high intermediate or advanced group, I feel that part of that group is having near total responsibility for your own safety.
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  8. #68
    dirty smack talker hakeem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robburgoon View Post
    I see it as their job to keep people from ruining each others day, and to a lesser extent, keeping the noobs from going splat. Once folks are in the high intermediate or advanced group, I feel that part of that group is having near total responsibility for your own safety.
    Could be, there's certainly a huge (maybe entire?) part of this that is about personal responsibility. But SV, NASA, both run a pretty tight ship even in the Red or HPDE4 groups. If you keep putting wheels off or doing stupid ****, you get booted off.

    Again, not saying that had anything to do with this incident, just musing about how HPDE events could improve. Particularly with XS, who seem to get the worst of it in terms of public opinion.
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    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hakeem View Post
    Perhaps not in this particular incident, but the behavior of the organization sets the tone for the entire event. Is sketchy passing OK? Two wheels off? Four? Do you get kicked out for repeated infractions?

    Maybe it doesn't matter, I don't know. But it feels like HPDE events should be controlled fairly tightly given the random nature of the participants and their equipment.
    XS definitely needs to have download meetings (someone said they sometimes do). There were a lot of offs...this is from me, someone that think 1 off per session is acceptable. There was a dicey pass made on our car (I was riding passenger) at Bus Stop. a car in front of us went off exiting Bus Stop. We slowed down, car behind me passed us between us and the car that was still off sideway. If there was a download, would of chewed the driver out.
    I was in 2 red flag incidents yesterday, and saw another 2 black flag all incidents. to be fair. XS draws a younger crowds (it was also a Vtec day yesterday), so more incidents are to be expected.

    another problem with all organizers is number of cars on track. 10 years ago, max cars per session was ~20 cars. now it seems 35 cars are the minimum. problem is people gets frustrated for not having clean laps (few guys I talked to had a total of 1-2 clean laps all day). and go for dicey passes. Some does better than the others with time grid system, but then it is just another excuse to put in more cars.
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    The Real Captain Slow Red_5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bellwilliam View Post
    question: does HANS do anything in side impact ? does it help even a little ?
    Not sure what the answer to your question is exactly but there are other head and neck restraints that have tested better than HANS in lateral impacts. HANS seems to require the full containment seat and nets, which are good to have but not great for street driven cars, for full protection.
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    Quote Originally Posted by crzywhiteman01 View Post
    One thing I am curious to know is if the car was not on fire. Why were they taken out of the car ? You never move the patient in something like this that could be a major neck or spine injury. Also wonder if extreme speed even has extraction equipment. I know speed ventures does and pretty sure NASA events do as well just seems odd. Or they don't have any safety crews trained working there.
    Besides fire, other good reasons to remove a patient from a car wreck fairly quickly includes cardiac arrest, respiratory arrest (breathing stopped), massive bleeding, etc. All of these can be quickly fatal if not treated in a timely fashion.

    Hopefully, when the pax was removed, his neck and spine were stabilized.

    Who removed the pax? Was there a Paramedic/EMT crew there?
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    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red_5 View Post
    Not sure what the answer to your question is exactly but there are other head and neck restraints that have tested better than HANS in lateral impacts. HANS seems to require the full containment seat and nets, which are good to have but not great for street driven cars, for full protection.
    problem is HANS is the only one that don't expire after 2 years. I find it really dumb that a piece of simple device will expire after 2 years. Like it or not, HANS device is a costly device (heck, it buys 3 tires !!), having it expired after 2 years really sucks.
    Last edited by bellwilliam; 12-08-2015 at 10:14 AM.
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  13. #73
    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeColangelo View Post

    Hopefully, when the pax was removed, his neck and spine were stabilized.

    Who removed the pax? Was there a Paramedic/EMT crew there?
    I can confirm that. I am not sure if it was the driver or pax. but I saw them remove a male with some kind of neck stabilizing device. it was the EMT crew that removed him.
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    Below
    Last edited by markn; 12-07-2015 at 03:51 PM.
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    Why are the tires on the inside of the corner workers station and not on the outside? Are they there but you can't see them from this angle?


    Quote Originally Posted by hakeem View Post
    Sorry if controversial, hopefully helpful:

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    Gotcha makes sense. Thanks for the info.

    Also on your statement of driver downloads I don't know if they ever do. I only ran one event with them and I was in beginner group. Did not even have 1 download. Everything was a mess so I have said I will never go back. Also run groups are over crowded I am sure to make up for the low price point.
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  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by markn View Post
    Why are the tires on the inside of the corner workers station and not on the outside? Are they there but you can't see them from this angle?
    I believe that is just a canvis wrap containing the tires unless you mean what side of the wall
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    Not Certified Slow SDSUsnowboards's Avatar
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    I'm going to be that guy who comes in and says safety is a personal choice, and ask (in vain) that you stop conspiring to legislate people's judgment and capacity for risk-taking.

    What exactly is your goal? Zero deaths caused by motor sports? Then ban motor sports and swallow the heavy pill that also takes away from your enjoyment of life. Do you want to bring fatalities caused by motor sports down to a few? Then do nothing. One death every two years is pretty damn good in state that has 30 million people. If you can't stand the idea that people die doing things they like, then maybe focus your efforts on those activities that claim the most lives, and enjoy a higher return for your efforts. I'd start with swimming pools, cigarettes, and carbonated beverages.

    I agree that there should be discussion about what happened at BW13, and what YOU can do to prevent it from happening to YOU.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SDSUsnowboards View Post
    I'm going to be that guy who comes in and says safety is a personal choice, and ask (in vain) that you stop conspiring to legislate people's judgment and capacity for risk-taking.

    What exactly is your goal? Zero deaths caused by motor sports? Then ban motor sports and swallow the heavy pill that also takes away from your enjoyment of life. Do you want to bring fatalities caused by motor sports down to a few? Then do nothing. One death every two years is pretty damn good in state that has 30 million people. If you can't stand the idea that people die doing things they like, then maybe focus your efforts on those activities that claim the most lives, and enjoy a higher return for your efforts. I'd start with swimming pools, cigarettes, and carbonated beverages.

    I agree that there should be discussion about what happened at BW13, and what YOU can do to prevent it from happening to YOU.
    I understand where you are coming from, but....

    I used to do a ton of off-road racing. My favorite place to practice and closest place to race was privately operated Saddleback motorcycle park. With each death and serious injury that occurred, insurance got more difficult and more expensive to get. Even though all the suits were due to either "racing incidents" or blatant and wanton irresponsibility by the dead or aggrieved rider, the place got shut down as did Indian Dunes and Escape Country.

    It is in all our interests to limit injuries and death not only for the human toll on the driver and their loved ones, but for access to this sport by the rest of us. So yes, we do have a legitimate interest in applying peer pressure for safer participation or someone else will legislate it for us... or strip it from us.
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