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Thread: Fatality at Buttonwillow

  1. #201
    Senior Member ryan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatbillybob View Post
    Exactly right ryan it was ronson.
    glad to know I'm not senile yet.

    .. wait. do i know you?

  2. #202
    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif Blackbird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryan View Post
    Adopt drag racing rules and say a specific time requires specific safety gear?


    Discuss....
    This means auto-ban for any of the faster cars w/o full race gear.
    A good driver will easily go well under 2:00 at BRP in a Z06 while driving at grandma pace, but to drive a 120 HP Miata or Civic at sub-2 you need to drive the wheels off the car.

  3. #203
    dirty smack talker hakeem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackbird View Post
    This means auto-ban for any of the faster cars w/o full race gear.
    A good driver will easily go well under 2:00 at BRP in a Z06 while driving at grandma pace, but to drive a 120 HP Miata or Civic at sub-2 you need to drive the wheels off the car.
    Can we conclude then that banning Miata's is the right thing to do?
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    Quote Originally Posted by robburgoon View Post
    Craig did fine other than not locking up once it was going around for sure. That part sucked. Camera car needs a dope slap for his slow reactions.
    Sorry but Craig shouldn't have tried to save it. He got lucky....again, two wheels off, straighten the wheel and go straight off. It's been said a million times yet another unreasonable risk.
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  5. #205
    Senior Member fatbillybob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryan View Post
    glad to know I'm not senile yet.

    .. wait. do i know you?
    Yes you might remember me as the tiny blue dot getting smaller in your rearview mirror.
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  6. #206
    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missedtheapex View Post
    Sorry but Craig shouldn't have tried to save it. He got lucky....again, two wheels off, straighten the wheel and go straight off. It's been said a million times yet another unreasonable risk.
    I'm not sure he even tried to save it, from his car's body language it looked to me like he didn't expect to be dropping a tire at all and was in damage control from that point.

    Need to see on board video to be sure.

    Could scold him for not realizing a tire drop was imminent.


    Edit: just had another look, this time in HD, looks like he didn't drop a tire on exit after all. Looks like a panic lift on exit that got the car rotating. Yeah, dropping tires would be preferable to a panic lift.
    Last edited by robburgoon; 12-11-2015 at 08:48 PM.

  7. #207
    Chest hair required Olitho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryan View Post
    If i remember right, that was where Ronson broke his car.... Or was it an AZ guy? Oli, remember that?

    It was Matt from AZ who stuffed his T1 Corvette into that flag station during an SCCA race.

    The race I was in when that happened we were going the other direction.
    Last edited by Olitho; 12-12-2015 at 12:08 AM.
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  8. #208
    Senior Member Todd R's Avatar
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    My condolences to Ivo's family and friends as from what has been shared he sounded like a good person.

    Everyone who has driven a high horsepower car around Buttonwillow knows coming out of the esses at speed can be a balancing act of track room, grip, and slip angle. We have all seen cars hit the flag station, low wall and even some try to re-enter the paddock through the chainlink fence in that area.

    I know it is popular to get on the safety equipment bandwagon but really until more details are known I think this is premature. Taking the position of more safety is better appeals to the emotions involved in this event but might miss the real lesson.

    How many stock cars have had the following I have seen happen on modified cars?

    Spontaneously catch on fire.
    Suspension parts break and cause meeting with wall.
    Wheel broke at spokes causing off (I was actually instructing as a passenger in that one and happened while braking into Sunset).
    Engines blowing
    Tires cut by body work
    Seats break on impact
    and on and on...

    Modern cars are quite safe if the systems are left intact but with some modifications these systems will no longer be viable. Roll cages while protecting the occupant can also be tied into what was a crumple zone that was designed to dissipate energy upon a collision. More force will be transferred to the occupants upon collision so the force has to spread over a larger area so you have more belts and restraints.

    Stock is beautiful.

    Everyone knows there is risk in the hobby but don't shut it down to those who want to enter through unreasonable requirements. I do think new drivers need to be brought up to speed slower than what I have been seeing as it is one thing to run a fast lap but another to catch a car on the edge of control.

    Keeping safe is not just what you are driving/wearing but also involves the nut behind the wheel. Hope more details emerge and we all can learn something.
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  9. #209
    Senior Member DocNrock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olitho View Post
    I am wondering what kind of injury would cause this on a side impact. Bleeding from the ears suggests to me a head injury and from the mouth could be from head and sinus injuries or lung/torso injury. I am not medically trained at all so this is pure conjecture.

    I am going to write to Brent Jackson and ask him if he will pontificate to help us learn and understand.
    To say this is unfortunate would be an obvious understatement.

    Given what I have read here, the mechanism of injury seems to be a lateral impact on the passenger side at 80+ mph. The findings after the crash were a driver who apparently was killed immediately, with blood in his ears and mouth. There apparently was no halo seat.

    Simply based upon the above, there was likely a high cervical spine injury and base-of-skull fracture. Many of you have already hit on this. A spinal cord injury above C5 can lead to respiratory failure. C3 - C5 are responsible for respiration, among other things. The base-of-skull fracture would explain the blood in the ears. The blood in the mouth could be from the basilar skull fracture. It could also be from a tongue laceration, as was mentioned. The mortality from such an injury at this rate of speed would be quite high. The fractures themselves are not the cause of the mortality. Rather, it is damage to the spinal cord and brainstem that would be fatal. At a lower rate of speed, the fractures could occur without significant displacement. This could leave the enclosed soft nervous tissues intact. But the higher rate of speed caused the driver's head to move laterally enough relative to his restrained body to not only cause the fractures, but then continue movement, damaging the cord and brainstem. Some or all of this might be quite obvious to some of you. I apologize for that. I am simply giving my input, since I was asked to do so.

    The passenger likely did not experience a similar injury because his helmeted head was likely stopped from excessive lateral motion by the car's body (B-pillar?).

    Regarding the extrication of the driver, I do not have experience with being a first responder. I get the patients after they roll into the trauma bay. But, if the driver was unresponsive, and especially if the first responder(s) were able to check for respirations and/or a pulse and there were none, then it would be totally appropriate to place a C-collar (if possible) and extricate the person to initiate BLS.

    Regarding having an ambulance on site, I don't think it would have made a difference in this particular outcome (obviously). But it seems to me that it should be standard to have an ambulance on-site for these events.

    I'm afraid I have not added much. This was a tragedy, to be sure. But I hope what I have added is helpful to someone.
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    In honor of those who have left us, we should demand better. Theoretically, at a modern, well designed track, a one car fatal collision with a barrier should be almost mathematically impossible. Knowing the weight and speed of a car in a corner should dictate how much runoff there is, and how many feet of kitty litter it would take to dissipate speed before impacting anything. For every 10mph increase in speed, momentum DOUBLES! High speed crashes have tremendous energy, so rather than trying to remedy the problem inside the car with limited effectiveness, it is relatively much cheaper and more effective to simply add runoff and kitty litter, or catch fences. Yet, there are tracks where the Armco is within inches of the white lines, or not far off with only slick grass in between. There is one new track which will remain nameless that appears to not only ignore driver safety, but actually have contempt for safety--the consequences of an off are probably punishing almost anywhere on the track. Since we all have free will, I will never go there, but I can't stop my adult son from driving there in his fast car. How unreasonable is it to expect tracks to move back Armco and tire walls, and add kitty litter? ASE might even have standards for this, I don't know. This is not a total solution, but could have prevented this tragedy. The other consideration is that in a high G force accident, the brain slams the inside of the skull with huge force, so even if a helmet was fully contained, the occupant would suffer massive head injury. Finally, remember when Senna died in Italy, the Italian government wanted to put the Williams team on trial for murder-while ignoring the extremely dangerous corner Senna had discussed that very weekend. Don't assume governments will respond rationally, or according to statistics.

  11. #211
    Chest hair required Olitho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocNrock View Post
    To say this is unfortunate would be an obvious understatement.

    Given what I have read here, the mechanism of injury seems to be a lateral impact on the passenger side at 80+ mph. The findings after the crash were a driver who apparently was killed immediately, with blood in his ears and mouth. There apparently was no halo seat.

    Simply based upon the above, there was likely a high cervical spine injury and base-of-skull fracture. Many of you have already hit on this. A spinal cord injury above C5 can lead to respiratory failure. C3 - C5 are responsible for respiration, among other things. The base-of-skull fracture would explain the blood in the ears. The blood in the mouth could be from the basilar skull fracture. It could also be from a tongue laceration, as was mentioned. The mortality from such an injury at this rate of speed would be quite high. The fractures themselves are not the cause of the mortality. Rather, it is damage to the spinal cord and brainstem that would be fatal. At a lower rate of speed, the fractures could occur without significant displacement. This could leave the enclosed soft nervous tissues intact. But the higher rate of speed caused the driver's head to move laterally enough relative to his restrained body to not only cause the fractures, but then continue movement, damaging the cord and brainstem. Some or all of this might be quite obvious to some of you. I apologize for that. I am simply giving my input, since I was asked to do so.

    The passenger likely did not experience a similar injury because his helmeted head was likely stopped from excessive lateral motion by the car's body (B-pillar?).

    Regarding the extrication of the driver, I do not have experience with being a first responder. I get the patients after they roll into the trauma bay. But, if the driver was unresponsive, and especially if the first responder(s) were able to check for respirations and/or a pulse and there were none, then it would be totally appropriate to place a C-collar (if possible) and extricate the person to initiate BLS.

    Regarding having an ambulance on site, I don't think it would have made a difference in this particular outcome (obviously). But it seems to me that it should be standard to have an ambulance on-site for these events.

    I'm afraid I have not added much. This was a tragedy, to be sure. But I hope what I have added is helpful to someone.
    Thanks Doc, I suspected basil skull injury, I just didn't know if it would cause the bleeding that was cited. I thought about the passenger not getting the theorized injuries as Ivo. It could be that the B-pillar provided support or perhaps even the flat nylon panels around the tire stacks... who know. Accidents can have amazing things happen. I have also thought about side impacts on non-halo seats. Almost all non-halo seats have small winglets and I have thought on a 90 degree side impact that those winglets could cause a horrific whip action and fulcrum point on the most sensitive area of the neck and skull. This is just a presumption on my part and I am getting far into speculation that can only be investigated on a crash sled.

    One thing that I do when I go to work out is neck exercises. I always do neck strengthening exercise to help protect my neck for those times I crash the car, mountain bike or motorcycle. It is my understanding that a strong neck can make the difference between being OK vs. paralyzed or dead.
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  12. #212
    Not Certified Slow SDSUsnowboards's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7thvette View Post
    How unreasonable is it to expect tracks to move back Armco and tire walls, and add kitty litter?
    It's perfectly reasonable. When should I inform WSIR to expect a check from you to grade the outside of turn 9 and add pixie dust and pillow walls?
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  13. #213
    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocNrock View Post

    The passenger likely did not experience a similar injury because his helmeted head was likely stopped from excessive lateral motion by the car's body (B-pillar?).

    .
    The tire wall I bet. (Oli beat me to it)

  14. #214
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    Isaac Head and Neck Restraint System

    I'm not current on the latest but if not using a full containment seat with HNR the best 360 degree neck support was provided by Issac device in non-halo seats. The problem is it failed SFI 38.1 iirc because there is no single release. I used this device before HANS was available. I really liked it and would continue to use it if I was using a non-halo seat. The numbers are here for the lateral impact sled tests.

  15. #215
    Senior Member granth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olitho View Post
    One thing that I do when I go to work out is neck exercises. I always do neck strengthening exercise to help protect my neck .
    What type of workout do you give your neck each day?

  16. #216
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    SDSUsnowboard and fatbillybob are making all the right points in favor of driver's freedom.

    This is a terrible tragedy, but it's just that- a dreadful event. It's not a systemic failure of HDPEs in general- HDPEs in general may be hell on cars but the vast majority of cars are not damaged and are driven home after. Of those that are crashed, the vast majority do not result in bodily injury. This is despite the lack of safety features on the majority of cars participating in these HDPEs.

    Racing is a random-event generator with both cars and drivers causing wrecks due to equipment failure and driver failure. Could the flag station be designed better? Absolutely, but the frequency with which it is struck makes the strikes statistical anomalies rather than an overt failure of the track to keep the drivers' safety in mind.

    Anyone who knew Ivo has my deepest condolences, but please don't resort to knee-jerk reactions.
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  17. #217
    Not Certified Slow SDSUsnowboards's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by granth View Post
    What type of workout do you give your neck each day?
    I was on the wrestling team once, long ago. I got a big strong neck by doing neck planks. Get on your back, then arch yourself so that the points of contact with the ground are your toes and your head. Then push off with a foot so that you roll over, maintaining those contacts, but now face down. Repeat. More advanced: push off with both feet and do a half-flip with your head touching the ground at all times. I recommend a nice, plush mat and maybe a head cover of some sort.

    If you want to use weights, then get on a bench, face up, with your head unsupported. Put plate on your forehead, hold it in place with one or both hands. Gently do "crunches" with your head. Flip and repeat.

    I prefer the former, but you might need to work up to it if you're heavy.
    Last edited by SDSUsnowboards; 12-12-2015 at 02:42 PM.
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  18. #218
    Senior Member e5pr1t's Avatar
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    Default More about safety

    It was a tragic incident. I was very sad, especially I was in the same session and saw the aftermath. After gathering the info from this thread, online photos, and Ivo's previous driving videos. I want to point out a few safety items that I think he or the car did not have.

    The purpose of this is hopefully some people that are following this thread may learn from this. You never know, we could have the wrong idea the whole time and did not know. Some of us may have lazy moments at some point regarding safety, including myself. A few times when I realized I forgot to put on the window net after I got in the car w/my helmet & HANS on, I got lazy and say never mind, because it was really difficult with the helmet on. I will for sure put on the window net in the future.

    Anyhow, here's what I gathered as far as safety items that missed from the car:

    1. Using 5 point/6 point harness and no HANRS - more dangerous than 3 point harness w/airbag
    2. No Halo seat
    3. No Center net

    Should he had at least 1 or 2 of above, maybe the chances that he survived would be higher?

    4. FIA/SFI padding for cage/roll bar - this is super dangerous, might also be an item that could save him from this incident.
    5. No window net
    6. The anchor of his shoulder belts are way too long from the seat (this is from his previous driving videos), it looks like it was mounted at the back seats, or at least that was the distance.

    IMO, this car definitely has more safety than an OEM car. However, with the items that missed, could it make this car more dangerous than factory? With a cage and no padding (pool noodles don't count).

    I have one questions regarding center net, I believe the center net is suppose to catch both shoulder and helmet. However, NASA does not require a center net if you have halo seats (I could be wrong). But, halo seats will only catch the head, not the shoulder. So is this safer?

    Last, I did some research with HANS and lateral impact. The article below was announcement by HANS regarding side impact. What's your opinion?

    **********
    PRESS RELEASE CORRECTION - HANS DEVICE ASSERTS SIDE IMPACT PERFORMANCE

    The original press release referenced an incorrect SAE paper. The correct document is SAE Technical Paper Series 2004-01-3513.

    Atlanta, Georgia (March 13, 2008) Recently, allegations have been made that the HANS Device does not work in side angular impacts. This is simply not true. It is contrary to proven results. Such distortions confuse and deceive the racing public.

    Independent testing, supported by General Motors Racing, Wayne State University and Safety Solutions, Inc., has demonstrated that HANS Devices reduce maximum neck tensions by over 35% in 60-degree "side" impacts in a typical racecar set up (SAE Technical Paper Series 2004-01-3513.)

    HANS Performance Products CEO Mark Stiles said, "We are not aware of any substantial independent side impact testing on products that try to compete against HANS Devices, but we have seen competitors continually try to deceive racers with marketing spin."
    Stiles added, "SFI tests include a 30-degree "side" impact. The best performance we have seen reported by competitors here is 20% worse than we achieve with HANS Devices in recent tests."

    He continued, "Representatives from HANS Performance Products, Hendricks, ISP and The Joie of Seating, did observe some 90-degree "side" impact testing conducted at the end of last year by Delphi for NASCAR. We all witnessed how the HANS Device worked as the tethers grabbed the helmet."

    The best side impact performance is achieved with an SFI or FIA approved head and neck restraint, a good harness system, seats that have hip and shoulder support, and a lateral head support system. The latter can be built into the seat or achieved using special side nets.

    **********
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  19. #219
    Senior Member fatbillybob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by e5pr1t View Post
    The best side impact performance is achieved with an SFI or FIA approved head and neck restraint, a good harness system, seats that have hip and shoulder support, and a lateral head support system. The latter can be built into the seat or achieved using special side nets.

    **********
    Some of your questions can be answered if you start here as I posted above Isaac Head and Neck Restraint System
    Some of your questions can be answered if you research Halo seats vs. full containment seats.
    I think the less containment the more you need nets. All systems are a compromise.

  20. #220
    Track Whore Pure EvoIX's Avatar
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    Alan, when you say you looked at his previous videos, you mean when he was driving the GC Subaru correct (Bullet point #6). The car Ivo was driving was a friend's car (E46). When you mention the belts, were you referring to his GC Racecar or the E36 M3.
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