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Thread: Fatality at Buttonwillow

  1. #181
    Senior Member Silversprint's Avatar
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    People drive 10/10th in HPDE. Once people have laptimers, egos take over and it's racing. These events are not HPDE. They are timed events, regardless if there is or isn't wheel to wheel racing.

    Real HPDe doesn't have 10 different challenges and trophies for laptimes. Let's call it what it is. It's racing without all the safety requirements.
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  2. #182
    Chest hair required Olitho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pure EvoIX View Post
    Sorry if i misunderstood your previous post. What do you mean by jackknifed? If contact was the right side of vehicle...he had to rotate 180deg hitting the marshals' post. Are you saying he might have had driver input towards the left after dropping the 2 right wheels to bring it back on tarmac, but instead it sent him off to the left side rotating 180deg.
    I don't know what you mean by 180 degrees. If he rotated 180 degrees the back of the car would have hit the flag station.
    This is 180 degrees.
    u-turn.jpg

    Do you mean 90 degrees?
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  3. #183
    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    If you look at post #42. It is indeed 180 degree. Car is turned facing traffic.
    I believe this is the position the car rested after hitting the corner station
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  4. #184
    Chest hair required Olitho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bellwilliam View Post
    If you look at post #42. It is indeed 180 degree. Car is turned facing traffic.
    I believe this is the position the car rested after hitting the corner station
    The car might have finally stopped in a 180 degree position, but the previous posts describing what happened led me to believe the car rotated 180 as it left the track for the corner station. The wording is not very clear.
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  5. #185
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    If you're in a high powered, highly prepped car and you're really hauling the mail, your exit from the esses onto that straight will have your car loaded with a lot of centrifugal (centripetal?) force to the right side. So if one were to drop a rear wheel with the car loaded like that, there isn't really any time to correct, or to bring the car back on track or to even drive off to the right. You're going to spin/slide. It's like getting a flat (hitting ice for you New England drivers) in your outside rear going through a sweeper. Physics will tell the car to spin from sudden loss of traction at that corner, you will counter steer, and then you will be a passenger as the car slides sideways across the track. He was really really unlucky - I'm betting there's nothing else he could have done. Now, if you go two wheels off (both right wheels) then you can drive straight off and slow the car...there's a paved section/runoff road right in front of that area too so you can get some braking done...

    I've watched a lot of racing from the fencing along the esses and its remarkable to me that as you get closer to the flag stand the narrower the tire barrier. A known place where cars get totalled should be up the track to fix. No one needs to die doing this....

  6. #186
    Senior Member JulioG's Avatar
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    I don't remember which group I was running with (Speed Ventures or NCRC), but about 2 months ago, an S2000 put one or two off coming out of the esses, spun off across the track, and rolled at least once before stopping laying against the fence, maybe 200ft-300ft before the sunset tower. Driver walked out unharmed AFAIK.

  7. #187
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    The exit of the esses when running 13 CW at BW is vastly underestimated in terms of risk. I'm not sure I've ever heard this area called out during an orientation meeting or download. Too many cars either hit the inner embankment or hit the corner workers station as a result of two off there. Going two off at the exit of the esses at first glance seems innocuous but the results are often catastrophic.

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  8. #188
    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif Blackbird's Avatar
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    Aaron consistently points out that area in the first driver's meeting of the day.

  9. #189
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    My condolences to the family and friend. Massive Kudos to all that have so intelligently posted on here, and more importantly mature and respectful to each other, wish I could same the same for other forums. In my little 12 years of doing this and as watching motorsport going up as a kid, safety can never be taken lightly and we've seen the difference it can make even at the highest level of the sport in F1.This really forced me to ask, what could have been done differently? before I start jumping to conclusion. All I can do is look at the sport at the most professional level where rules are strict, and where its difficult to find easy "HPDE type errors", and even there death occurs despite the most sophisticated safety gears.We all could potentially lose our lives at 65mph when that texting high schooler causes a multiple car car crash on the high despite being in our oem air-bagged car. Hence, the need to maximize safety at alkl cause. All contributed points are quite valid and we can all definitely learn from it as we usually assume experience/knowledge will always keep us safe. I can assure you if Ivo was a beginner or an intermediate driver, there would have been a major "inexperience driver at HPDE" bashing happening (Taking away from an opportunity to learn). You can never over-emphasize safety, and there are days that I wish my car was a monocoque despite my "up to date" 6pt harness/professionally built cage/hans/pre-ordered SA2015 helmet to give me a 100% sense of safety (Should we limit horsepower? who knows). At the end of the day, I've come to realize that certain Socal tracks have few unforgiviging sectors, experienced drivers in high Horsepower cars continue to break track records with very little improvement made to run-offs on those same tracks (esses to sunsetat BW C13/T9 at WSIR). Makes you wonder why FIA forced F1 to drop Hp in attempt to get them to go just a bit slower. On any given weekend watching professional racing on TV, there are handful of nasty crashes with properly built cars in the hands of a pro race car drivers, but most of the time the driver walks away from the nasty crash. The key point is if you are going fast enough, maximize safety at all possible level as this wonderful human being, fellow enthusiast who's skill can't be questioned had proper safety gears, and it probably just wasn't enough to keep him alive for his his wonderful family at the speed the vehicle was able to achieve as a consequence of his skill as a driver taking the car to the limit in a section of the track where most of us are usually flat-out through the esses if you get it right coming out of the sweeper. I sure hope his children, wife and family find the strength to carry on. This holiday season will be difficult indeed. Our hearts go out to them. I don't think any of us has the answer, but as with Dale Earnhardt, Senna, Bianci etc, the more we know, the better and safer we will be. All the safety measure we are all talking about comes from knowing more about what could go wrong. More emphasis on safety during this off-season/testing season everyone
    Last edited by Triple M; 12-11-2015 at 02:00 AM.

  10. #190
    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markn View Post
    The exit of the esses when running 13 CW at BW is vastly underestimated in terms of risk. I'm not sure I've ever heard this area called out during an orientation meeting or download. Too many cars either hit the inner embankment or hit the corner workers station as a result of two off there. Going two off at the exit of the esses at first glance seems innocuous but the results are often catastrophic.

    Mark
    I've seen about 9 crashes Exiting Esses. But never seen or heard of one hitting the corner station until this week.
    Last edited by bellwilliam; 12-11-2015 at 07:38 AM.
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  11. #191
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    This event makes 3 that I can recall.

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  12. #192
    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif Blackbird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bellwilliam View Post
    I've seen about 9 crashes Exiting Esses. But never seen or heard of one hitting the corner station until this week.
    Let me see if I can dig up a pic I took at BRP about 10 years ago of a Radical parked on top of that flag station..
    Last edited by Blackbird; 12-11-2015 at 08:31 AM.

  13. #193
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    First off, my condolences to the driver, and I hope for a speedy recovery for the passenger.

    Earlier it was mentioned that there was just 'advanced fire' crews there - I assume in the pickup trucks. Why was there no ambulance on site? I was under the impression that all track events had to have an ambulance on site, and I recall having to wait until ambulances arrived until the track went hot.

    At Thunderhill for example, I remember trying to book the track for a day for a friend's company and you couldn't opt out of having an ambulance.

    Can anyone share some insight on this?

  14. #194
    Track Whore Pure EvoIX's Avatar
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    This is Craig in his sti trying to save it exiting the esses. He was really close making contact with that barrier. He should have given up after the first fishtail. What not to do.
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  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samurai_Blue View Post
    First off, my condolences to the driver, and I hope for a speedy recovery for the passenger.

    Earlier it was mentioned that there was just 'advanced fire' crews there - I assume in the pickup trucks. Why was there no ambulance on site? I was under the impression that all track events had to have an ambulance on site, and I recall having to wait until ambulances arrived until the track went hot.

    At Thunderhill for example, I remember trying to book the track for a day for a friend's company and you couldn't opt out of having an ambulance.

    Can anyone share some insight on this?
    Rules are different from track to track.

  16. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by robburgoon View Post
    Rules are different from track to track.
    Gotcha, thanks.

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    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
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    Craig did fine other than not locking up once it was going around for sure. That part sucked. Camera car needs a dope slap for his slow reactions.

  18. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by markn View Post
    A few years ago we were testing at BW running 13CW and I was following a customer of mine (Miata) and he went wide and put two off at the exit of the esses heading to sunset. He almost saved it. Almost being the key word. When the two wheels that were in the dirt contacted the paved cut off road the right front got traction on the pavement and hooked the car head on into the corner workers station at very high speed..
    If i remember right, that was where Ronson broke his car.... Or was it an AZ guy? Oli, remember that?
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  19. #199
    Senior Member ryan's Avatar
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    Adopt drag racing rules and say a specific time requires specific safety gear?


    Discuss....

  20. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryan View Post
    If i remember right, that was where Ronson broke his car.... Or was it an AZ guy? Oli, remember that?
    Exactly right ryan it was ronson. One of the issues that should be discussed is that at higher speeds the trouble zone for a miata going 85 is much smaller than a vette doing 120. I have seen many cars do that dance in that area and the higher the top speed the closer to the worker station they seem to end up. When I travel raced this year to new tracks I always asked the experienced guys where the bad parts of the track were. Watching a couple of sessions also pointed out where people had issues. What I learned were setups that ate cars. There are common themes. It is sort of like a pattern stock market trader who looks for a particular setup before he pulls the trigger and buys.

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