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Thread: Crash footage from Streets Of Willow sunday. Cartwheeling off the back straight

  1. #121
    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
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    One thing to keep in mind is that it doesn't take mastery of track driving to tell the new guy to check his mirrors, point people past, check flagstations, and not set his e brake.
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  2. #122
    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    like Richard saying, this is getting to be dumb to talk about XS's instructors. but I think you all are overreacting.

    1. 95% of instructors' job is to keep drivers safe. that's it. you really are just babysitting.

    2. driving skill and teaching skill are 2 different things. knowing how to drive, don't mean you know how to teach.

    3. I know XS have some really good drivers as instructors (no, I am not with XS, and only ran once with them in the last 18 months) . no, it doesn't mean they know how to instruct. I've also seen some bad drivers being instructors at all clubs. BUT that doesn't mean they don't know how to teach a 1st time noob. They might not be qualified to instruct me or you, but they are more than qualified to teach 1st time tracker.

    4. All other organizers you guys mentioned also have some bad drivers as instructors. I remember one instructor from a renowned instructor school was having problem making it in black group in SV.
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  3. #123
    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatbillybob View Post
    Younger clubs have no depth of talent and they pull from what they have. SCCA and Alfa Club are the very few open marque clubs to have been around for scores not decades, have deep talent pools, and offer driving schools that includes time trial and racing (I don't know anything about NASA). Young drivers don't know that reasonably priced real teaching venues exist and are often intimidated by people with gray hair instead of looking at them as an information source. For anyone over 50 trying to communicate with their 20 y/o college student you know what an uphill battle this can be.
    but younger instructor can relate better to the younger 1st noob. last time I overheard some instruction about how xBox Forza's driving style (brake release thing), relating how to take corner at T2-T5 at Laguna, and car setup using Forza tuning (suspension thingie).........I have no idea what they were talking about, but the noob was fast right after
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  4. #124
    Not Certified Slow SDSUsnowboards's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Richter View Post
    Can one really know what "fantastic instruction" is after only 1.5 years? Just sayin.
    Of course one can! Can you opine on the tastiness of a foreign food, even though you've had it once or a few times?

    It is a fallacy to address the qualifications of a person to even have a valid opinion rather than addressing the content of their opinion. If truly interested in assessing the worth of his opinion, why not ask the opinion-giver some questions?

    How many times have you been instructed?
    What elements are present in good instruction?
    Why do you you feel the instruction at X was better than Y?
    How do you (or, do you) quantify the results of instruction?

    etc.
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  5. #125
    Track Whore Pure EvoIX's Avatar
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    Question about instruction. I believe there are 5 levels. I think the job of an instructor is to help them with Level 1 and Level 2. That is basic instruction. Of course those who want Level 4 or Level 5 type instruction shouldn't go to get that at your normal HPDE which provide free instruction. You need to contact people more specialized, with MORE experience and know what they are talking about and can convey it. Seasoned racers, 1 on 1 private driving coaches you hire type people, etc...

    Level 1 - For total noobs. You teach them the line. Repetition. Basics. What do flags mean. Where are the flaggers. Getting use to environment. Doesn't have to worry about time. Make sure they are safe, reign them back, and show them a good time.
    Level 2 - More intermediate stuff. Stuff you teach someone after they have 2-3 track days. Heel/toe, gear selections, balancing brake and gas, passing better, use more of the track things like that.
    Level 3 - People know the fundamentals of car control, are faster (think they know everything). Still honing their skill trying to go faster and be consistent. Polishing up all their fundamentals and advanced techniques, trail braking, using references to brake later, get on gas earlier, double apexing, etc...Looking for that last 3-4s on table.
    Level 4 - Competitive level. Using everything have learned over 40+, 50+, 100+ events, all the tracks visited, seat time, and looking for those few tenths or maybe that last second. They have plateaued in terms of lap times. no longer knocking off 0.5-seconds. Getting very difficult to get tenths.
    Level 5 - Racing stuff. Race craft, strategy. Defending. More Advanced Racing stuff. Etc...
    Last edited by Pure EvoIX; 05-16-2014 at 09:40 AM.
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  6. #126
    Track Whore Pure EvoIX's Avatar
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    If i were to rank myself, it would probably be at a 3.8-4.

    I don't think a perfect lap exists for us mere mortals. Even my best fastest lap, I spot at least 1.5s on table just looking at the video, not even dissecting it via data. tenth there...tenth there...brake 5ft later there...get on gas 2s earlier there...2/10ths there...etc...
    Last edited by Pure EvoIX; 05-16-2014 at 09:47 AM.
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    1:47.2xx @ Laguna Seca - 11/28/10
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    2:05.100 @ CVR CCW - 1/16/11
    1:58.151 @ CVR CW - 5/5/13
    1:25.56x @ WSIR - 10/13/13
    1:23.128 @ SOW CW - 7/27/14
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  7. #127
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    Qoes XS have mandentory classroom sessions for both beginner and novice drivers with no club license?
    A: Yes they do, and it's some of the best out there. Some of you are fathers with 20 year old sons-that's where the problem really begins. And I agree less than 20 track days you are still a novice. Problem at XS is not the instructors, it's the 20 year old "Race Car" drivers that still think they are indestructible. It does get annoying when Johnny in his Dad's Camaro is trying to pressure you on the warm up lap. But I guess he has to start somewhere. As Darwin would have it, the first time he spins or goes off, let's just hope he doesn't hurt someone else. Although I can see the merit in getting a club license, a track day event is not a racing club, so don't be surprised where there are yahoos there.

    Q:I find it very hard to believe that after 4-6 track days one is qualified to instruct.
    A: So would anyone. This is not true. All of XS instructors are very seasoned drivers, I don't think any of them have less than 5 years. Their chief steward makes a career as a driving instructor and is a top notch guy.

    Q:How many driving schools have you attended for either TT or race to help better your skill and who were they with?
    A: I don't really care too much for the NASA thing, not a fan of Spec Z (I drive a 370). I instead run with POC racing club-a lot of whom are NASA racers. Their system is definitely more formal requiring sign offs/log books/ etc. But it's wheel to wheel racing once they license you. Their instruction is also some of the best out there, and it has more of a racing school twist to it. Me personally I am allowed to run solo in their PDS, but still have a few more things to do in order to get licensed in their time trials. I won't be able to get a W2W race license with them unless I buy a Porsche lol.

    Remember driving in a TT evenet doesn't mean just go fast, there are many other factors as well!

    Yes and you don't win any trophies at track day events. You can say it over and over to someone, but if they don't listen, then you can't help them.

    Thanks for the honest questions. Look I'm 40 years old and I agree with a lot of what people are saying here, but XS is an organization that provides a track day. They are not a racing club. Their staff are awesome people, they have great instruction, I too get tired of Johnny in My Dad's Camaro pressuring me on the warm up lap. But you the driver of your own car make it what it is.
    Last edited by GSS138; 05-16-2014 at 09:48 AM.

  8. #128
    Senior Member 48yota's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GSS138 View Post
    Qoes XS have mandentory classroom sessions for both beginner and novice drivers with no club license?
    A: Yes they do, and it's some of the best out there. Some of you are fathers with 20 year old sons-that's where the problem really begins. And I agree less than 20 track days you are still a novice. Problem at XS is not the instructors, it's the 20 year old "Race Car" drivers that still think they are indestructible. It does get annoying when Johnny in his Dad's Camaro is trying to pressure you on the warm up lap. But I guess he has to start somewhere. As Darwin would have it, the first time he spins or goes off, let's just hope he doesn't hurt someone else. Although I can see the merit in getting a club license, a track day event is not a racing club, so don't be surprised where there are yahoos there.

    Q:I find it very hard to believe that after 4-6 track days one is qualified to instruct.
    A: So would anyone. This is not true. All of XS instructors are very seasoned drivers, I don't think any of them have less than 5 years. Their chief steward makes a career as a driving instructor and is a top notch guy.

    Q:How many driving schools have you attended for either TT or race to help better your skill and who were they with?
    A: I don't really care too much for the NASA thing, not a fan of Spec Z (I drive a 370). I instead run with POC racing club-a lot of whom are NASA racers. Their system is definitely more formal requiring sign offs/log books/ etc. But it's wheel to wheel racing once they license you. Their instruction is also some of the best out there, and it has more of a racing school twist to it. Me personally I am allowed to run solo in their PDS, but still have a few more things to do in order to get licensed in their time trials. I won't be able to get a W2W race license with them unless I buy a Porsche lol.

    Remember driving in a TT evenet doesn't mean just go fast, there are many other factors as well!

    Yes and you don't win any trophies at track day events. You can say it over and over to someone, but if they don't listen, then you can't help them.

    Thanks for the honest questions. Look I'm 40 years old and I agree with a lot of what people are saying here, but XS is an organization that provides a track day. They are not a racing club. Their staff are awesome people, they have great instruction, I too get tired of Johnny in My Dad's Camaro pressuring me on the warm up lap. But you the driver of your own car make it what it is.
    I'm not saying you are a bad driver I'm simply saying I don't want some asshat newb that has had 6 track days and a club is saying that he is an advanced driver just because he got a fast lap in dad's camaro take me out for making a mistake while passing or getting passed or taking a corner too hot coming back on track causing a major problem. A good instructor will see Johnny in his dads camaro and pull him in and have a "chat" to reel him in. He may not have gone off but causes problems for the others on track...at that point it is safety that must take precedence.

    I am sure that ES has qualified instructors, I'm saying that 4-6 track days IMO doesn't not qualify as a good instructor, for a newb to show him the track maybe, but to teach advanced technique, car control concept, car setup, and ultimately personal safety.

    Sure, does a 20 yr old want to listen to a grey hair 50 like me...no, does a 20 yr old want to listen to another 20 something for advice just because he was fast, probably. Does he discuss how to safely do that fast lap, prob not because that is the furthest thing from his mind.

    I have seen to many young and probably very skilled kids have a serious problem at the track because of not taking the necessary steps of proper instruction and personal safety.

    I wished every club would require to attend a school before moving on to the next group. But then you would have 300 cars in beginner and 2 in advanced.
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  9. #129
    Senior Member Silversprint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GSS138 View Post
    Yes and you don't win any trophies at track day events. You can say it over and over to someone, but if they don't listen, then you can't help them.
    Actually they do give you trophies at these HPDE events. The Time Trial Challenges are open to anyone from beginner to advanced regardless of prior driving experience or car preparation.

    These are not simply track days anymore. These are now competitive timed events on a race track.
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    2. driving skill and teaching skill are 2 different things. knowing how to drive, don't mean you know how to teach.
    Yes, yes and yes.

  11. #131
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    Another point worth mentioning... look at how much HP and grip the average track-day newbie can roll up with, compared to say 20 years ago.
    Heck, even when comparing lap times from 2002 to these days... it's incredible how fast things are getting.

    When I started doing track days in the 90s most beginning folks had 150-250hp if they were lucky. 510s. 240Zs. Even the 5.0 Mustangs had 225 or so.
    These days. What does the new 5.0 have? 430hp? Not to mention the GTRs and other AWD boost-mobiles.

    Makes it a whole lot easier for new folks to get in over their head, that's for sure.
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  12. #132
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    The best instructors I've had were always the old guys at POC and BMWCCA.
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  13. #133
    Master of Disaster SteveLevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeColangelo View Post
    You forgot, "brakes are for quitters!"
    Nah, I just tell them "brakes are like lawyers, it costs a lot every time you use them"



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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveLevin View Post
    Nah, I just tell them "brakes are like lawyers, it costs a lot every time you use them"

    Steve
    And a lot of them are pretty warped . . . .
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silversprint View Post
    Actually they do give you trophies at these HPDE events. The Time Trial Challenges are open to anyone from beginner to advanced regardless of prior driving experience or car preparation.

    These are not simply track days anymore. These are now competitive timed events on a race track.
    This is a total lie.

  16. #136
    Chest hair required Olitho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GSS138 View Post
    This is a total lie.

    Why do you say that?

    The previous statement is not completely accurate, but it does have elements of truth. Your statement is not accurate either.

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    I say it's a lie because it's not true. Anyone else here getting trophies from track days?

  18. #138
    Senior Member fatbillybob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GSS138 View Post
    This is a total lie.
    Actually, You can enter the Corvette Challenge with Speedventures with just your streetcar in the stock class and in your first day on the track get a trophy if you are FOD for your class. The fastest class in Corvette Challenge hitting 160mph at ACS is required to have just what Speedventure requires for safety gear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fatbillybob View Post
    Actually, You can enter the Corvette Challenge with Speedventures with just your streetcar in the stock class and in your first day on the track get a trophy if you are FOD for your class. The fastest class in Corvette Challenge hitting 160mph at ACS is required to have just what Speedventure requires for safety gear.
    I won the 2009 season Championship in the SpeedVentures Corvette Challenge in C5 Stock Class, running a C4. I got the biggest trophy I have ever won, and photos with the trophy girl.

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  20. #140
    AROSC Comp. Director Slaysman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GSS138 View Post
    I get it, you hate extreme speed.
    I don't hate extreme speed at all. We wouldn't partner with them at all it that were the case. We run a W2W race group with them, and we bring some of our TT people to their events too.

    Quote Originally Posted by GSS138 View Post
    It's also my opinion that the idiots that are at every event are the ones that need to be hiring instructors more.
    Of course! That's part of why they are idiots - they don't need any instruction because they know it all.

    Just a side note: We believe you are never good enough to not be able to learn something new. At our driving schools, which we have been running for almost 40 years, we periodically have guest instructors who are typically retired professional racers. Among their credentials are class winners at Le Mans, Formula 1, Indy cars, Formula 5000, Trans Am, etc.
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