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Thread: Crash footage from Streets Of Willow sunday. Cartwheeling off the back straight

  1. #101
    Captain Planet tq3z's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GSS138 View Post
    I have, I run with a lot of the local groups POC, Speed Ventures, etc. I think Extreme Speed has some of the best instructors out there. The problem is the that people don't listen to them. Have you ever ridden with any of them? If not than I think you need to.
    Have you ever had professional instruction? What do you consider a good instructor?

    Facebook claims instructors with XS are either people who can churn out X laptime or people who have attended at least 4+ track days with them. Not sure how valid this is. But the idea that multiple people are communicating that fact is alarming.
    Do you understand?

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    If it's on facebook it must be true right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tq3z View Post
    Have you ever had professional instruction? What do you consider a good instructor?

    Facebook claims instructors with XS are either people who can churn out X laptime or people who have attended at least 4+ track days with them. Not sure how valid this is. But the idea that multiple people are communicating that fact is alarming.
    I do not have personal knowledge of how XS chooses their instructors, but I do know they have a few on staff and the rest are volunteer. The volunteers get nothing substantial in return: no free track days, no money. They volunteer, putting themselves in danger, because they want to. These are not the kind of people that get put on youtube with the headline, "grumpy instructor gets frustrated with driver and asks to get out." Further, instruction is not mandatory at XS. The people who have instructors in their cars specifically asked for instruction. They want to learn, and the instructors want to teach. It's a good instructing setup.
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    The one that was captured cartwheeling was a 1995 240sx with an sr20det motor swap. The only pics of the wreck that ive seen are on the second or 3rd page of this thread.

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    Hey, I'm a great HPDE instructor. I just keep repeating "be smooth," "look way ahead," "slow in fast out," "use all the track," "brake in a straight line," "get on the gas sooner," "be aware of who is around you -- use your mirrors," "both hands on the wheel," "don't miss the download" . . .
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    Master of Disaster SteveLevin's Avatar
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    I'm more of a TrackHQ style instructor.

    "never lift, never surrender!"

    Steve

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    Track Whore Pure EvoIX's Avatar
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    Brand new newbie: I never been on track before. Ok he just waived me through.
    Instructor (Me): GO GO GO GAS GAS GAS FLAT FLAT FLAT GO GO GO GAS GAS GAS NOW BRAKE HARD HARDER HARDERRR TURN NO NOW TURN TUUUUURNNNN AHHHHH. And that is turn 1. rinse repeat for 20 min. Heart rate...over 9000. j/k j/k. trollolol.







    (disclaimer: I really don't do this lol)
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveLevin View Post
    I'm more of a TrackHQ style instructor.

    "never lift, never surrender!"

    Steve
    Well, you don't really have any choice about that in a Spec Racer Ford . . .
    The deposed former Sheriff of trackHQ . . .

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    Quote Originally Posted by ucfbrett View Post
    That's a bad scene. By the time a driver gets to intermediate, you would think he would have grasp of the risks involved and the consequences of driving over his head.
    idk in my experience it's the intermediate drivers who are the worst. They grasp how fast the car can go and don't have the experience or skill to handle when things don't go right.
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    Quote Originally Posted by krazik View Post
    idk in my experience it's the intermediate drivers who are the worst. They grasp how fast the car can go and don't have the experience or skill to handle when things don't go right.
    Exactly and that's true in any sport. My biggest "offs and spins" in my vette were in the intermediate stage when I started pushing the car harder through the corners and either was afraid to turn the wheel hard enough on corner entry and went 4 off (similar to the vette in this event) or simply put 2 off on exit. It only took me 1 time of hooking the car back across the track after going 2 off to learn how to keep the car in control in that situation. Seems like we all have to learn the hard way once in a while on the path to becoming better drivers. I think this is where I have most improved lately. If/when I go off or make a mistake, it's not necessarily the end of a good lap or a loss of position in a race. Minimize the error, keep the car pointed in the right direction no matter where you are, and move on. It doesn't phase me mentally like it used to. I used to back way off after making a mistake to regain confidence. This isn't necessary when you are a more experienced driver. As a beginner or intermediate, it makes sense to back off after making a mistake until you fully understand what caused the mistake and how to prevent it. If you're not sure, ask for help either from a coach or from people watching your video. Don't just go back out at 10/10ths and hope it doesn't happen again.

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    Truer words have seldom been spoken.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveLevin View Post
    I'm more of a TrackHQ style instructor.

    "never lift, never surrender!"

    Steve
    You forgot, "brakes are for quitters!"

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    Interestingly enough, NASA will be running an HPDE at Streets of Willow this weekend. I like NASA as they run a tight ship and quickly deal with azzhat driving. I'd bet that there won't be 5 wrecks on either day.
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  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by GSS138 View Post
    I have, I run with a lot of the local groups POC, Speed Ventures, etc. I think Extreme Speed has some of the best instructors out there. The problem is the that people don't listen to them.
    From an Extreme Speed forum on Facebook:
    "And as far as I know, I was told that you can become an instructor after having a total of 4 or 6 track days with extreme speed without having any "incidents" and you can become an instructor. That could be part of this problem."
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/3497...ription_change

    Jeez, we still consider drivers as beginners until about 10 track days. I can see it now…. "That is where you get on the the track. That is where you are supposed the exit the track, but you will probably find other places you can do that. Don't worry about warming up your tires, it is hot out here."
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    A good start for addressing some of these issues might be for the various track day/hpde organizations to start talking to each other and start sharing what works or doesn't work in terms of minimizing risks and on track incidents. B2B conversations. It is in all our interests to lower on track risk and make these events safer and optimize the experience. Sharing incident logs between organizations might be a good thing also to help identify problem areas and drivers?

    SOW is a tough one. Lots of bad things seem to happen at that track but it is not the only track where things happen. Looking back what pushed me into wheel to wheel racing was a really bad experience at a NASA HPDE (3) at Button Willow where I was nearly taken out twice by other drivers. I decided then and there that I wanted to be on track with people who had a clue and my next step was a SCCA and NASA racing license. No more HPDE. I found that W2W was actually safer than HPDE's and this was with running Spec Miata. Go figure. Granted these licenses are not what they used to be and NASA has gotten a LOT better with their HPDE program.

    Perhaps a trackhq rating system would provide some guidance for particpants allowing them to best select events that deliver a safe and enjoyable track day experience?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slaysman View Post
    From an Extreme Speed forum on Facebook:
    "And as far as I know, I was told that you can become an instructor after having a total of 4 or 6 track days with extreme speed without having any "incidents" and you can become an instructor. That could be part of this problem."
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/3497...ription_change

    Jeez, we still consider drivers as beginners until about 10 track days. I can see it now…. "That is where you get on the the track. That is where you are supposed the exit the track, but you will probably find other places you can do that. Don't worry about warming up your tires, it is hot out here."
    I get it, you hate extreme speed. Maybe one of the instructors with 6 track days under his belt touched your boy parts during a time attack or something. All I can tell you is that the instruction I have gotten from them (and all the other groups I have run with over the last 1.5-2 years) has been fantastic. It's just an opinion. It's also my opinion that the idiots that are at every event are the ones that need to be hiring instructors more.

  17. #117
    Senior Member 48yota's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GSS138 View Post
    I get it, you hate extreme speed. Maybe one of the instructors with 6 track days under his belt touched your boy parts during a time attack or something. All I can tell you is that the instruction I have gotten from them (and all the other groups I have run with over the last 1.5-2 years) has been fantastic. It's just an opinion. It's also my opinion that the idiots that are at every event are the ones that need to be hiring instructors more.

    Let me interject here. Does XS have mandentory classroom sessions for both beginner and novice drivers with no club license? Our club you are considered a novice with less than 20 track days. It is obviousely a prestige position to be an instructor but to become one in our club doesn't simply mean after 4-6 track days you become one with no track incidents. You have to become licensed, move to advanced, go into w2w race group then possibly considered, it takes time to be qualified. Just because one can drive fast does not mean you are good.

    I find it very hard to believe that after 4-6 track days one is qualified to instruct. In my opinion a good instructor knows the track in which he/she is instructing at very well, not just the fact that there is 6 days under their belt.

    How many driving schools have you attended for either TT or race to help better your skill and who were they with?

    Remember driving in a TT evenet doesn't mean just go fast, there are many other factors as well!
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  18. #118
    Senior Member Eric Richter's Avatar
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    Can one really know what "fantastic instruction" is after only 1.5 years? Just sayin.
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    To be fair to xs I know at least one of their regular instructor has been doing it for a long time. He has years of experience with many clubs. He has also attended NASA instructor school.

    It's hard to teach common sense. Unfortunately the drivers with least common sense tend to have the largest egos and never seem to need instruction.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 48yota View Post
    in our club ...snip...You have to become licensed, move to advanced, go into w2w race group then possibly considered, it takes time to be qualified. Just because one can drive fast does not mean you are good.
    I find it very hard to believe that after 4-6 track days one is qualified to instruct.
    Remember driving in a TT evenet doesn't mean just go fast, there are many other factors as well!
    Younger clubs have no depth of talent and they pull from what they have. SCCA and Alfa Club are the very few open marque clubs to have been around for scores not decades, have deep talent pools, and offer driving schools that includes time trial and racing (I don't know anything about NASA). Young drivers don't know that reasonably priced real teaching venues exist and are often intimidated by people with gray hair instead of looking at them as an information source. For anyone over 50 trying to communicate with their 20 y/o college student you know what an uphill battle this can be.
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