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Thread: Crash footage from Streets Of Willow sunday. Cartwheeling off the back straight

  1. #61
    Senior Member cosmin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyr0monk3y View Post
    The organization itself may not be relevant, but the clientele is. Private or club days are usually less populated and by a more experienced crowd. On a weekday club day, I might go 5 laps without seeing another car. IMO, the density and experience of the clientele is far more important than any rules the organization might impart.
    I'm going to disregard the sentence about weekday HPDE because I don't think that's a fair comparison to the "normal" HPDE experience that most of us have available to us. Every organization I've run with (XS, SV, NCRC) on a weekend has usually been 15-20 cars in the intermediate run groups.

    You argue regarding a) run group density and b) clientele experience.
    Density is consistent from what I've seen on weekends. Usually in the shape of a bell curve from beginner-intermediate-advanced. More people = more offs. **** happens.
    Experience.. is hard to control. Every organization will have an intermediate run group, and it's usually the most packed with go-hards who bite off more than they can chew. **** happens.

    I honestly think this could have happened with any organization. XS does attract a younger crowd, which I can understand as being more foolhardy, but I've been on track with cocky old assholes in Corvettes and I've felt just as unsafe. I agree with the Sheriff: **** happens.
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  2. #62
    Senior Member cosmin's Avatar
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    And if you think this will be solved by more download meetings, the only thing I ever hear at those meetings is "So and so won't let me pass". Do you really need to tell people not to crash their car?
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    I wanna go fast! thepass's Avatar
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    It's like the "stop criminals from using guns by reducing gun access for all the honest, well-intentioned members of the public" theory... news flash, the criminals don't follow the laws anyways, so a stricter law doesn't affect them. (not trying to get everyone riled up on the gun topic, just drawing a parallel here)

    The guys going out and completely overdriving their cars and wadding them up are all too often the ones who aren't paying any attention to the driver's meetings, morning meeting, downloads, etc.
    We've all seen it; everyone gathers for the download after the session and someone brings up car number X which was doing unsafe this and reckless that... and big shock, he's the only guy NOT at the driver's meeting. When (if) they do track him down later, he didn't even know there were mandatory downloads (what's a download?), he gets a verbal slap on the wrist, it goes in one ear and out the other, and he goes back out the next session still thinking he knows everything and trying to "win" the session.

    That's not to say all the wrecks are due to individuals like the ones above, sometimes **** really does just happen, and human error falls squarely in that category, but it's the ones who don't realize what they are doing wrong, are too ego-inflated to admit their shortcomings, etc. etc. who are real dangers on the track, and they are the ones who the meetings won't reach, no matter how many there are or what their content is.

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    I'm going to admit here that I sometimes lie about my track times to xs to ensure that I get to run in advanced. And I have zero issues running my slow car in advanced(I'm never an issue in downloads) I refuse to run in intermediate solely based on what car I drive to the track that day.

  5. #65
    RaceTape Ninja Force McCocken's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmin View Post
    I'm going to disregard the sentence about weekday HPDE because I don't think that's a fair comparison to the "normal" HPDE experience that most of us have available to us. Every organization I've run with (XS, SV, NCRC) on a weekend has usually been 15-20 cars in the intermediate run groups.

    You argue regarding a) run group density and b) clientele experience.
    Density is consistent from what I've seen on weekends. Usually in the shape of a bell curve from beginner-intermediate-advanced. More people = more offs. **** happens.
    Experience.. is hard to control. Every organization will have an intermediate run group, and it's usually the most packed with go-hards who bite off more than they can chew. **** happens.

    I honestly think this could have happened with any organization. XS does attract a younger crowd, which I can understand as being more foolhardy, but I've been on track with cocky old assholes in Corvettes and I've felt just as unsafe. I agree with the Sheriff: **** happens.
    In some ways you are both correct. You do have a choice when and where you do an HPDE, taking a day off from work to run an HPDE is a choice that can result in a lower density of participants. The weekends are more convenient for most, however. Everything is about choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by cosmin View Post
    And if you think this will be solved by more download meetings, the only thing I ever hear at those meetings is "So and so won't let me pass". Do you really need to tell people not to crash their car?
    It is about troubleshooting.

    "if so and so won't let me pass", that person has choices. He can wait to make the pass, continue to be stuck, OR he can come through pitlane, allow that driver to to get ahead, and pull back out. Again it is troubleshooting choices and options.

    Recently, over the past year, I have run the intermediate groups, with a few other experienced drivers, just to watch or discreetly shepherd the group. It is an effective way to spot participants who are in need of more coaching or need some discussion about what they are doing. It's pretty simple when the 'shepherds' are spaced out on the track, running incognito. They can help stem some aggressive behavior and offer some surprising post-heat tips to those they saw. I am offered a discount for running those heats and am able to rotate back to advanced group when I want. It isn't meant as an oppressive tactic, but as a quality assurance that those released from beginner stage are effectively driving within their limits in regard to safety for all. It also give those we find needing help a 'follow the leader' tool to help them see the track as we do (as advanced drivers).
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    I honestly think that extreme speed has the best instructors and drivers out there on their staff. They do attract a lot of the younger crowd because they also have the best pricing. The unfortunate consequence of this is that you get a lot of younger kids with lesser amounts of money, and larger amounts of courage. That's OK, Darwin works in mysterious ways. This weekend was a bit odd, the laptimes were fast and people were pushing, experience will tell you the back chicane on SoW is not a good place to try to pickup time. I guess once you fly off the track and crash your car there, you will understand, unfortunately 20 year old little boys still like to learn the hard way. I am not sure any HPDE instructor can explain that.

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    This has to win the prize for stupidest thread of the year.
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    Senior Member Gian's Avatar
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    I have been out with most of these groups. Instructing mostly or helping in some way. The things you see people do or say, while at a track event is just a "oh wow" moment. I do care which organizer it is. Yes each group atracts different age/car/personalities. Trying to keep a rein on the group as a whole is very diffacult. While still giving the freedom to make it fun. It comes down to you have to trust people to give you an honest assessment of them selfs. Then police the groups. Making sure everyone is doing right by the rules. But it would take a dedicated group leader (or 2) to do this. But no matter what. There are going to be those few that slip through the cracks. Most all the drive going to their first few events have a higher expectation of them self. No matter what you tell them. Till they figure out that their car is faster then they are. Doesn't matter how much money or cool stuff you have.
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    Not Certified Slow SDSUsnowboards's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmin View Post
    I don't think XS has any fault in this, at all. How much can you hold someone's hand?? Those drivers would have crashed regardless of the organization. Choosing which organization is safer? Seriously?? The organization isn't driving on track, you are. Torque your fyckin lug nuts.
    Agreed: XS has no fault, and I should torque my fycking lug nuts. I'll do it tomorrow.

    I do think there is a difference between organizations with regards to the enforcement of rules pertaining to safety, which does have an impact on how safe the participants are. When I ran with NASA people were going off all day and NASA didn't blink an eye. Then, in contrast, there was this weekend with Extreme Speed. All of the driver's who didn't crash are put into a room and sternly informed that a 4-off for anyone means they are done for the day. If all else were equal, then I'd say ES is the safer organization to run with based on the above. Tho, make no mistake, I like NASA's approach much, much better.
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    Chest hair required Olitho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard EVO View Post
    This has to win the prize for stupidest thread of the year.

    The participation in discussion and interest in this thread belies that opinion. I think it is relevant and educational. You are an older fart so it seems redundant to you, but for others it is relevant.
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  11. #71
    dirty smack talker hakeem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silversprint View Post
    There are too many drivers trying to win a HPDE trophy in a street prepped car. I think there are so many timed challenges in these HPDE events that allow drivers to push their street cars with beginner or intermediate driving skill that something is bound to go wrong. If you can barely drive a car on the track why are you allowed to rent a lap timer and try to set a fast lap?
    That's actually an interesting thought, maybe you shouldn't be allowed to rent a transponder until you are in the advanced group? And to get to the advanced group someone needs to approve you (NASA style)?
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  12. #72
    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    Let's not overreact. I like the Wild West thing in socal.

    1 crash a HPDE day is ok. 2 is bad luck. But 3 or more, there is something wrong. But let's not fix it by going to east coast or NASA way.
    SV has been doing a good job. XS always had a little more issue, but that's because I think they attract a younger crowd.

    Get back to the basic.
    - safety equipment, no 4 point belt, strap their helmet in (Chuckawalla), no aftermarket non air bag steering wheel in street car (sow), so forth.

    - less cars per session - if you have difficulties getting a clean lap. You are less likely to bring up to speed slowly. If this is your only golden lap. You are going to go for it. You guys talk about plastic trophy. Fact is we are all guilty of that.

    - place people in correct run group.

    - download is important. People holding up others make people frustrated. I only get so many clean laps per day and you are taking away 30% of my clean laps.
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    Track Whore Pure EvoIX's Avatar
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    I say we use some sort of log book. For every HPDE event you go to, and must get it signed off during every event. Every off, spin, reprimand is recorded. Once you reach 10-15 events, you are eligble to move up to Advanced. And you need to have 2 people sign you off. Something like that. So there is a "HPDE driving record". So if you get a guy with 20 spins and only done 5 events, well, you are not moving up a group. Each log must be entered by an instructor and signed off.

    This does a few things:
    -Let's staff know what is REALLY going on with the individual's past history of HPDE.
    -Accountability
    -Safer for the driver and the other drivers on track.
    -Everyone will be vetted to the same standard for each group.
    -Informs and educates driver of mistakes or if doing a good job.
    -Driver can look at it and learn from it.
    -Everyone is where they should belong.
    -Able to not promote bad drivers to more advance groups when clearly they need more help if they are going off every other lap.
    Last edited by Pure EvoIX; 05-14-2014 at 10:17 AM.
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    Track Whore Pure EvoIX's Avatar
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    We can hit our hazards to indicate we are on our hotlap. So everyone GTFO way. For Time Trial/Time Attack purposes.
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    I've ran w/ NASA two times and both were crazy, the last time was about a yr ago at Sonama and 4+ cars hit walls

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    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
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    The one bad thing I'll say about xtreme is they put me in my RX8 in intermediate at WSIR last time. I was like "are you really sure? You know I race, right?"

    Fortunately the reg girl said just go out in this inter, then come back and she'd put me in advanced.

    The irony is once I got past the exotics, the other cars formed a train on the other side of the track so after 3 laps in traffic I effectively had the track to myself for the last 5 laps.

    But good god are those inter drivers unpredictable. No brake checks at the crest of 6 please folks....

  17. #77
    Senior Member 48yota's Avatar
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    My .02 worth here. The club that I primarily run with we have 3 levels of experience, beginner 0-10 track days, novice 10-20 track days, advanced 20+ track days, fender to fender(advanded guys with cages). To get to the next level is tracked by our licensing director, you want a license you show up for the classroom sessions(debrief for some clubs) There is a great tool for us to use to verify someones experience, it is called the internet.

    In addition to having the experience in the group that you choose to run in we as a club have the right to move you where you should be based on experience. In addition to that we have a certian level of car safety prep that is required for each group, you want to run in the advanced group and you have 20+ track days you are going to have a 5pt harness. We cant prevent someone from being stupid but we can try to protect them the best we can. Yes, **** happens but I can tell you we as a club take all the necessary steps to try to avoid it from the get go.

    Yes, there are cars and people that slip thru the cracks but we catch them and deal with them, if you are not forth coming from the get go and we figure it out we do make changes. We had a entry register in the W2W race portion based on what he entered on his registration it looked good. After the qualifier, in which he finished 1st overall we went and took a look at his car, low and behold no cage...we moved him to advanced, not because he was not a safe driver, because the car was not prepped for the group he entered. Another driver in another event registered for advanced but no harness, so we made contact and moved him to novice, again because of car prep.

    What I am trying to say here is that the responsibility of safety falls on both the driver and the club. We have to assume a level of responsibility to keep all drivers safe regardless of circumstances. Again, we cannot protect people from being stupid but we try hard to not let them get hurt in the process.

    Do offs happen - Yes, Does contact happen - Rarely. What really gets me is all the video that I see in various car prep setups, I see various levels of clothing. I just dont get it, no gloves, short sleeves, shorts, in one video I saw a driver in thongs. Cars with cages and no padding, non snell rated helmets, drivers with suits but no gloves...I could go on with scenerios for ever. I am asking all drivers no matter of your skill level, atleast get some long pants, shirts, gloves, and a good SA rated hemlet to protect yourself.

    We want to see everyone at the track, but some just dont belong.
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    Senior Member fatbillybob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olitho View Post
    The participation in discussion and interest in this thread belies that opinion. I think it is relevant and educational. You are an older fart so it seems redundant to you, but for others it is relevant.
    You got the old part right but I see a reason that the sheriff is right too. Old guys come from a world of personal responsibility, not this progressive world of someone else is the cause of my plight. Where is personal responsibility? Why does the organizer need to babysit? Why do we need to lay blame for these incidents anywhere but on drivers? Everyone else can contribute in a form of vicarious liability but at the end of the day it is the driver's fault. Does anyone think that what happened to this guy was a good thing? He did not get hurt. He totalled/wrecked his car and probably will not be back Any time soon or ever. An idiot leaving makes the track safer for all. When he comes back he will be older, wiser, and smarter, which ups the safety of all. this lesson only cost him cash. I see a lot of wins with this incident. Let's mitigate high percentage risk while reinforcing the concept of personal responsibility.

  19. #79
    dirty smack talker hakeem's Avatar
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    As long as they don't take me out in the process, I am all for Darwin sorting it out.
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    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robburgoon View Post
    The one bad thing I'll say about xtreme is they put me in my RX8 in intermediate at WSIR last time. I was like "are you really sure? You know I race, right?"
    .
    how does she know this is not your 3rd day at any track event ? 16 yrs old, can go to a 2 day racing school and receive a race license. so this would be your 3rd day on track.
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