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Thread: Crash footage from Streets Of Willow sunday. Cartwheeling off the back straight

  1. #41
    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sebring27 View Post
    My first year of tracking HPDE was on the East Coast at Sebring with either Chin Motorsports, PBOC or PCA. I then moved to South CA and have been participating in Track days with
    various organizations here for 12 months. In my opinion all track day organizers could take a leaf out of Chin Motorsports book with regards to the communication of the importance of safety at drivers meetings. Chin Motorsports grill and grill the participants on this matter. Additionally Chin as well as PBOC and PCA on the east coast have a rigorous procedure
    of driver education. Only after atleast 6 track days with an Instructor do you have the opportunity of becoming a solo driver in the beginners group. Only after numerous more track
    days and a ride along appraisal will you be able to pass to the Intermediate group. The advanced group, well, that comes once you have completed literally thousands of laps as one is running with GT3 Cup cars lapping in approx 2.05 - 2.15secs - fast ! The end effect of this discipline is that the HPDE events on the east coast seem to comparatively take place
    with very little incident. I could not believe my first track day experience here in South CA, Big Willow, cars flying off in clouds of dust, one rollover, one Vette on turn 4 through the
    fence ( his first ever time on a race track on his second lap). "Wow", I thought, different world here, the 'Wild West !' The first mod I made to my car a week later was to get a full roll cage installed, not so much for the dreaded rollover but more for side impact protection from someone else loosing control.....On a positive note it is good to see so many young people attend HPDE/ Track days in CA. On the east coast track days are a lot more expensive and therefore a deterrent to the younger driver. It would however be good to see more serious attention given to drilling home safety by the organizers as I fear otherwise with increasing participation serious accidents and injuries will occur before long.
    And east coast drivers are SLOOOOOW

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    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif Blackbird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SDSUsnowboards View Post

    Often I see the distribution of blame here on track HQ: blame for the driver, blame for the organization, blame for the track design, blame for the track owner, blame for the brand of equipment the driver was using, etc. In my opinion, the only blame that legitimate is the blame aimed squarely at the driver. It's up to you as a driver to assess -- honestly -- how much risk you are willing to accept. Then it's up to you to patron tracks that accommodate your chosen level of risk. It's also up to you to place yourself in the run group that accommodates your chosen level of risk. Lastly, it's up to you to drive in a manner consistent with your chosen level of risk. It seems to me that a lot of people here would like to enforce their risk threshold on others through social pressure and regulations imposed by organizations. I can't agree with that.
    It is up to you to decide how much risk you are willing to take when you go sky diving, rock climbing, bungee jumping or any other extreme activity that you do by yourself.

    When you are going on track your risk is becoming other people's risk as well and therefore it is not just up to you to make that decision, it is yours along with the organizers and fellow drivers in your run group who can report your wrongdoings in the download sessions and have the ability to have you removed from the run group if your skill set doesn't match the level required to be a part of that group.

    What you see as discussions that blame X, Y or Z are actually a great learning tool.
    S**t doesn't just happen, it is CAUSED by a variety of reasons.
    The process of reviewing an incident and assigning fault gives every reader an excellent opportunity to gain knowledge and has all the potential of preventing future incidents for themselves.

  3. #43
    Senior Member fatbillybob's Avatar
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    The young are often more lucky than smart. As you age you better "get smart" because your luck will run out.
    For those who like few words..."Adapt or Die."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pure EvoIX View Post
    Okay, im stumped. What turn is this and what happened?
    Looks like the bowl.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SDSUsnowboards View Post
    I'll take the risk of voicing a contrasting opinion about our sport only because no one else has. I believe that going to a track with a car is inherently risky business as a matter of fact. **** happens. If it doesn't, then people aren't driving hard enough*. I could imagine this forum being called DrugHQ and people voice concerns about how someone needs to do something about all these dealers getting arrested. Five guys were arrested for dealing smack the other day. That' s unacceptable! There must be something we can do to keep people from getting arrested for performing the illegal sale and distribution of controlled substances! We'e told them time and again: don't get caught. And they keep getting caught which is clearly indicative of some systemic problem with the drug dealer union. They should have had more meetings-- that would solve the problem.

    Often I see the distribution of blame here on track HQ: blame for the driver, blame for the organization, blame for the track design, blame for the track owner, blame for the brand of equipment the driver was using, etc. In my opinion, the only blame that legitimate is the blame aimed squarely at the driver. It's up to you as a driver to assess -- honestly -- how much risk you are willing to accept. Then it's up to you to patron tracks that accommodate your chosen level of risk. It's also up to you to place yourself in the run group that accommodates your chosen level of risk. Lastly, it's up to you to drive in a manner consistent with your chosen level of risk. It seems to me that a lot of people here would like to enforce their risk threshold on others through social pressure and regulations imposed by organizations. I can't agree with that.

    5 totaled cars in one day? Ask the drivers what price they were willing to pay and then decide if it's a tragedy. As our sheriff has said, "If I am not willing to drop it off a cliff, I don't race it."

    *relative to the run group and goals of each individual driver. Beginners gonna begin, I get it. Some are there to putt around as if they are on speed controlled public streets, and others are there to challenge themselves.


    POST IT. Because, reasons.
    You are correct in that the ultimate blame for trashing his or her car lies squarely on the driver and no, I won't get into the impact (no pun intended) that it has on the overall cost of an event and thus the cost of my registration because yes, I understand it is a track event with risk. However, first, there is difference between driving properly and pushing the car (sometimes over the limit) and poor driving which leads to a bad situation. When I understand the limits of the car, I can determine when to push it (e.g. when the track is clear) and if I do go over the limits, I have an understanding of how to try to bring the car under control. Doesn't mean I won't go off and crash but I have a better chance of gaining control back and minimizing damage if things do go bad. When an individual is just driving poorly whether it be because they don't understand the limits or they don't understand the risk and think they are an awesome driver because they have done 3 track events and lots of canyon driving, they are much more dangerous. Personally, if they were on an open track with no other cars and they paid for the entire track rental; fine, be an idiot and crash but that is not the case. The big issue to me is that they are much more dangerous to those around them, including me and they cost everyone track time.

    So yes, in many ways it is the track organizers responsibility to make sure the idiots don't kill themselves, kill me or ruin the day for everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by sebring27 View Post
    My first year of tracking HPDE was on the East Coast at Sebring with either Chin Motorsports, PBOC or PCA. I then moved to South CA and have been participating in Track days with
    various organizations here for 12 months. In my opinion all track day organizers could take a leaf out of Chin Motorsports book with regards to the communication of the importance of safety at drivers meetings. Chin Motorsports grill and grill the participants on this matter. Additionally Chin as well as PBOC and PCA on the east coast have a rigorous procedure
    of driver education. Only after atleast 6 track days with an Instructor do you have the opportunity of becoming a solo driver in the beginners group. Only after numerous more track
    days and a ride along appraisal will you be able to pass to the Intermediate group. The advanced group, well, that comes once you have completed literally thousands of laps as one is running with GT3 Cup cars lapping in approx 2.05 - 2.15secs - fast ! The end effect of this discipline is that the HPDE events on the east coast seem to comparatively take place
    with very little incident. I could not believe my first track day experience here in South CA, Big Willow, cars flying off in clouds of dust, one rollover, one Vette on turn 4 through the
    fence ( his first ever time on a race track on his second lap). "Wow", I thought, different world here, the 'Wild West !' The first mod I made to my car a week later was to get a full roll cage installed, not so much for the dreaded rollover but more for side impact protection from someone else loosing control.....On a positive note it is good to see so many young people attend HPDE/ Track days in CA. On the east coast track days are a lot more expensive and therefore a deterrent to the younger driver. It would however be good to see more serious attention given to drilling home safety by the organizers as I fear otherwise with increasing participation serious accidents and injuries will occur before long.
    Did my first 4 or 5 track days (before going road racing) with Chin Motorsports around 14 years ago and yes, they ran a very good event

  6. #46
    Senior Member albertg's Avatar
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    I thought he said the corvette went off on the front straight.

    I believe SCCA will give you a provisional license to race open wheel after a 2 day school with no prior experience. 6 days with an instructor before you can run solo in a beginner group? That seems stifling.
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  7. #47
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    I think most (all?) people agree with the idea that drivers need to take responsibility for their actions, and that track driving is inherently dangerous. However, if HPDE's continue further toward a low-cost, wild-west business model, there will be more crashes and eventually more injuries. And there will be a big lawsuit. And then the party will be over for everyone, so track day organizers please please please do the little things you can do now to make these events safer. This is what I think it comes down to:

    1) Orderly driver's meetings, run by someone with experience and the ability to articulate the rules.
    2) Run groups organized by skill level, NOT by lap times. This encourages the ass-hat with 600 HP to learn the rules and drive with respect so that he (yes, he) can move up to the open passing group to prove how big his balls are.

    This is not rocket science and many track days already do this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeColangelo View Post
    Looks like the bowl.
    That is turn 1 going clockwise. the grey s2k is just coming out of the kink off the front straight and that flag station is for turn 1

  9. #49
    Senior Member Silversprint's Avatar
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    There are too many drivers trying to win a HPDE trophy in a street prepped car. I think there are so many timed challenges in these HPDE events that allow drivers to push their street cars with beginner or intermediate driving skill that something is bound to go wrong. If you can barely drive a car on the track why are you allowed to rent a lap timer and try to set a fast lap?
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    I'm going to share what happened at this last weekends event in regards to the two cars that went off track at the chicane, and the Corvette that went off at turn 1. I want to be sure you all have the facts on what happened. There is a lot of speculation and not everything I'm seeing here is accurate. There where three cars that went off track and where most likely totaled. First was the FRS, and it didn't roll over on it's top. That was the first incident. The FRS did not come into contact with any other car. It was a single off. After the FRS went off at the chicane, we decided to add more hey bails, and during this time we shut the track down for 20 min and had a 2nd drivers meeting. During this time our staff when over in detail about the off and used it as an example of what not to do. Everyone was at this drivers meeting. All run groups. I believe the Corvette was the next major off. I'm not sure what happened with this one other then that he carried to much speed into turn 1 and decided to just go straight off instead of trying of correct a slide. The Corvette driver did the right thing. He felt it safer to go straight off instead of possibly going off sideways. Later, a 240 went off at the chicane. This car also did not flip on it's top and did not come into contact with any other car. After the third incident, we shut the track down again and called a 3rd drivers meeting. At this meeting we basically told everyone to chill out and that we would not tolerate any more offs for the rest of the day.

    There where other offs through out the day before all of this happened, and more then a few mechanical fails but nothing that I would consider outside the norm for an HPDE event.
    I'm only posting this info here on Track HQ because I know and respect the fact they most everyone on this site is very well informed about our sport, and motorsports in general.

  11. #51
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    Someone once told me, " you first start out with an empty bag of skill and a full bag of luck. You try to fill up the first before you run out of the second."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olitho View Post
    Those are not exact quotes from Aaron, but my summation of what I recall he told me after 10 years of 20+ track days per year.
    Aaron runs 50+ track days per year at SpeedVentures, not 20+. I would accept his opinion as to these matters.

    P.S. The worst road course in SoCal, SoW, seems to have also become the most dangerous. $h!t happens on a racetrack . . .
    Last edited by Richard EVO; 05-13-2014 at 09:50 PM.
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    Spec Backhoe Champion redtopz's Avatar
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    Wait, $500 for a hay bale? What kind of "hay" is that?

  14. #54
    Chest hair required Olitho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sebring27 View Post
    My first year of tracking HPDE was on the East Coast at Sebring with either Chin Motorsports, PBOC or PCA. I then moved to South CA and have been participating in Track days with
    various organizations here for 12 months. In my opinion all track day organizers could take a leaf out of Chin Motorsports book with regards to the communication of the importance of safety at drivers meetings. Chin Motorsports grill and grill the participants on this matter. Additionally Chin as well as PBOC and PCA on the east coast have a rigorous procedure
    of driver education. Only after atleast 6 track days with an Instructor do you have the opportunity of becoming a solo driver in the beginners group. Only after numerous more track
    days and a ride along appraisal will you be able to pass to the Intermediate group. The advanced group, well, that comes once you have completed literally thousands of laps as one is running with GT3 Cup cars lapping in approx 2.05 - 2.15secs - fast ! The end effect of this discipline is that the HPDE events on the east coast seem to comparatively take place
    with very little incident. I could not believe my first track day experience here in South CA, Big Willow, cars flying off in clouds of dust, one rollover, one Vette on turn 4 through the
    fence ( his first ever time on a race track on his second lap). "Wow", I thought, different world here, the 'Wild West !' The first mod I made to my car a week later was to get a full roll cage installed, not so much for the dreaded rollover but more for side impact protection from someone else loosing control.....On a positive note it is good to see so many young people attend HPDE/ Track days in CA. On the east coast track days are a lot more expensive and therefore a deterrent to the younger driver. It would however be good to see more serious attention given to drilling home safety by the organizers as I fear otherwise with increasing participation serious accidents and injuries will occur before long.
    You do draw a very different contrast between the two coasts, but I also believe that there is one other very different factor driving the differences between the two sides of the Rockies. At tracks like Buttonwillow I have botched turns badly and gone off track at 100+ MPH because I chose that path as the least of the evils vs. trying to force my way around the turn. At several places at that track I can drive straight off at 100 MPH and do OK. No where can that be done at Mid Ohio, Road America, Heartland Park, et al. I have been off between Turn 8 and Turn 9 at WSIR between 90 and 100 MPH and only got my car dusty. Try that a Sebring. Sure sometimes the cars get damaged a bit going off fast on the west coast tracks, but usually it can be done with relative impunity. A big screw-up at Road America in some places and you get a helicopter ride... I know because it happened to a friend of mine in practice. That track has totaled more of my friends cars than all the other tracks I have raced combined.

    In summation, I think that is why practices have developed differently, not that there is not something to be learned from Chin. I will add though that on some track days I specifically want to go out and push the envelope and I know I will spin on some corner exits or miss my turn in while really trying to find a whole new level of the envelope. I will pick the spots carefully where I do that, but I don't want some self-righteous head instructor coming over to yell at me and say "This is your second warning, one more time and you are going home."
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    Chest hair required Olitho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redtopz View Post
    Wait, $500 for a hay bale? What kind of "hay" is that?

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    To the right of The Sheriff. Isn't everyone?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackbird View Post
    It is up to you to decide how much risk you are willing to take when you go sky diving, rock climbing, bungee jumping or any other extreme activity that you do by yourself.

    When you are going on track your risk is becoming other people's risk as well and therefore it is not just up to you to make that decision, it is yours along with the organizers and fellow drivers in your run group who can report your wrongdoings in the download sessions and have the ability to have you removed from the run group if your skill set doesn't match the level required to be a part of that group.

    What you see as discussions that blame X, Y or Z are actually a great learning tool.
    S**t doesn't just happen, it is CAUSED by a variety of reasons.
    The process of reviewing an incident and assigning fault gives every reader an excellent opportunity to gain knowledge and has all the potential of preventing future incidents for themselves.
    Good response.

    I don't think the possibility of car-to-car contact takes responsibility from the driver and moves it to the organization. Nor do I think that the possibility of car-to-car contact makes the question of risk-taking a democratic process. I believe that you, as the driver, is solely responsible for deciding how much risk you are willing to take. This includes the risk of other drivers hitting you. There are plenty of organizations to choose from, and some enforce rules regarding safe driving better than others. You may make an informed choice and run with the organization(s) which better accommodate how much risk you are willing to take when it comes to enforcement of driving skill, safety, of all participating drivers. There have been some threads where some people describe doing just that and I think that's pretty cool. It's capitalism at work.
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    Senior Member cosmin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowboards View Post
    Good response.

    I don't think the possibility of car-to-car contact takes responsibility from the driver and moves it to the organization. Nor do I think that the possibility of car-to-car contact makes the question of risk-taking a democratic process. I believe that you, as the driver, is solely responsible for deciding how much risk you are willing to take. This includes the risk of other drivers hitting you. There are plenty of organizations to choose from, and some enforce rules regarding safe driving better than others. You may make an informed choice and run with the organization(s) which better accommodate how much risk you are willing to take when it comes to enforcement of driving skill, safety, of all participating drivers. There have been some threads where some people describe doing just that and I think that's pretty cool. It's capitalism at work.
    I don't think XS has any fault in this, at all. How much can you hold someone's hand?? Those drivers would have crashed regardless of the organization. Choosing which organization is safer? Seriously?? The organization isn't driving on track, you are. Torque your fyckin lug nuts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olitho View Post
    You do draw a very different contrast between the two coasts, but I also believe that there is one other very different factor driving the differences between the two sides of the Rockies. At tracks like Buttonwillow I have botched turns badly and gone off track at 100+ MPH because I chose that path as the least of the evils vs. trying to force my way around the turn. At several places at that track I can drive straight off at 100 MPH and do OK. No where can that be done at Mid Ohio, Road America, Heartland Park, et al. I have been off between Turn 8 and Turn 9 at WSIR between 90 and 100 MPH and only got my car dusty. Try that a Sebring. Sure sometimes the cars get damaged a bit going off fast on the west coast tracks, but usually it can be done with relative impunity. A big screw-up at Road America in some places and you get a helicopter ride... I know because it happened to a friend of mine in practice. That track has totaled more of my friends cars than all the other tracks I have raced combined.

    In summation, I think that is why practices have developed differently, not that there is not something to be learned from Chin. I will add though that on some track days I specifically want to go out and push the envelope and I know I will spin on some corner exits or miss my turn in while really trying to find a whole new level of the envelope. I will pick the spots carefully where I do that, but I don't want some self-righteous head instructor coming over to yell at me and say "This is your second warning, one more time and you are going home."
    Well said.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmin View Post
    I don't think XS has any fault in this, at all. How much can you hold someone's hand?? Those drivers would have crashed regardless of the organization. Choosing which organization is safer? Seriously?? The organization isn't driving on track, you are. Torque your fyckin lug nuts.
    The organization itself may not be relevant, but the clientele is. Private or club days are usually less populated and by a more experienced crowd. On a weekday club day, I might go 5 laps without seeing another car. IMO, the density and experience of the clientele is far more important than any rules the organization might impart.

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    After moving back here from the west coast, Oli makes a good point. There are a few tracks here I have revisited where the runoff seems claustrophobic. Add in humidity and that stuff called grass, putting a wheel or two off here in the South makes you a bit more cautious, perhaps even more cerebral about your trajectory.
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