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Thread: Cost analysis for club racing

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    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif emilio700's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamz14 View Post
    Is SPM the lowest for the best competition? Maybe. But this last weekend we saw 30 cars at the race at the regional NASA race at Sonoma and the level of competition was top notch and the driving was very clean.
    Add up your costs for that weekend and post here if you would.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamz14 View Post
    Tires will last 3 weekends and be competitive.
    Nah. Two race weekends max for the Toyo RRs, then they're practice tires. Front runners will cycle them out much sooner. Guys like me will run them for three race weekends.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamz14 View Post
    We run Toyo RR's . At the regional level they will last 3 weekends and be able to podium. This assumes that you have multiple rim sets and you have a program that rotates in tires to practice on and tires to race on. That means that you will have a max of 5 cycles on your race tires when you take the last session of the 3rd weekend. If Rob will come out and play with us at Buttonwillow the next round, we can give you a really good idea on how a set of 5 HC tires will compare to whatever he will be running.
    OK, the devil is in the details.

    5 heat cycles and three race weekends can be two entirely different things.

    For guys on a budget like me, three race weekends means 18 heat cycles at the end of the 3rd race weekend. I rotate often based on Toyo's instructions.

    We should just talk about heat cycles and not the number of weekends for a more meaningful comparison.
    Last edited by MikeColangelo; 10-01-2013 at 12:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
    Add up your costs for that weekend and post here if you would.
    What would you like me to include? Two years of car refinement? Multiple dyno sessions over the last couple of years? Travel and lodging? Toll fees? If not then here were my expenses to race:

    Entry fees - Typically $350 or so. This weekend, nothing as we took advantage of the NASA NW offer if you haven't run with them.
    Tires - Nothing, as we used our 2 HC tires to race on and 16 HC tires to practice and qual on. These same tires were used in Fridays 4 session testing ( that cost $375 but would have been the same cost to you if you tested SPM that day). Because we start good, we chose to use old tires for qual. Tires are cooked but we will still use them to practice on at BW for the next race.
    Fuel - Aprox $150 in fuel . Same or less than you guys if running the same distance.
    Parts - I bought a $15 valve cover gasket and a new PCV valve - Same as you if you needed to replace those parts.

    In the spirit of what you are asking though; $350 for entry, $45 for a transponder because we chose to rent right now, $250 for tires with our rotation program. That is about $750 less fuel and transportation.

    Please don't ask me to add up what it cost to get that 6th place though. It took 2 years of dedication in the class, countless hours of car and driver prep, tens of thousands of dollars in track time and car prep, multiple years karting and building race craft, many humiliating defeats and negative comments by others.......... and hundreds of hours of enjoying life with my son!!!!! Worth every penny. And that is the bottom line guys. Go ahead and add up the cost if you wish. If the total will change how you feel about what you spent, I would suggest soapbox derby racing. If you love the sport, you will probably spend every last dime on it and die a happy broke man.

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    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    I just want to make sure people reading this thread, knows that when you guys are talking about RR lasts 2 or 3 weekends are talking about 3 sessions per day.

    whereas in SPM, it is 6 sessions per day....

    RR also is the spec tire in NASA SM. you can't use RR in SCCA NASA or NASA PTE (yes you can, but not competitively).
    Last edited by bellwilliam; 10-01-2013 at 12:22 PM.
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    Mike, if people are concerned about the cost you can be penny wise and pound foolish. Invest in multiple rim sets so that you are not toasting your race tires and having to buy stickers every race weekend. Get the most out of what you are spending. When I can I will be buying a 3rd set of rims so that we can extend our tire program even further. With multiple rim sets you can be competitive on 5 HC tires. That doesn't mean that it wouldn't be a good idea to go out on shaved stickers if you want that advantage. But that is the same for whatever tire SPM is thinking about running. Shaved new will be faster than unshaved old regardless of the tire in almost all cases. I am trying to compare apples to apples. Maybe I am wrong and we will get destroyed this coming weekend on our old Toyos.

    But you guys are right - If we were in contention for the championship that we care about, we would have gone out on stickers. But so would you in this new class. Devil IS in the details and that was my original point about the comparison that is being made to PTE class racing. Seemed to be full of details that were being presented in the best possible light to support the idea that SPM is the panacea for expensive racing. Racing is expensive period.

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    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamz14 View Post
    Entry fees - Typically $350 or so. This weekend, nothing as we took advantage of the NASA NW offer if you haven't run with them.
    Tires - Nothing, as we used our 2 HC tires to race on and 16 HC tires to practice and qual on. These same tires were used in Fridays 4 session testing ( that cost $375 but would have been the same cost to you if you tested SPM that day). Because we start good, we chose to use old tires for qual. Tires are cooked but we will still use them to practice on at BW for the next race.


    .
    for variable cost: I am just gonna compare tires and registration. since everything else would be roughly equal...

    registration - ~$350 vs. ~$280. note this is 3 sessions per day for NASA/SCCA vs. 6 sessions per day for SPM. so twice the seat time for those that cares.
    tire - not gonna argue how many HC, but from our experience (We've ran ~40 NT01 in 2011 T25, and 75 RR in 2012 T25, plus every California Chump race and enduro, and often on R6), I can tell you that tire life of:

    RC1 > NT01 not by much though. RC1 likes cooler weather, NT01 likes warmer weather.
    NT01 lasts ~50% more than RR
    RR lasts ~30% more than R6 (but R6 hc out fastest)

    so your tire cost will always be less with RC1 than RR/R6.
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    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    for fixed cost:

    to be competitive in PTE or SM, you need a built engine..... that's $$$
    in SPM, you just need a junk yard engine, as the power curve is capped (no flat power curve allowed).
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    William is correct, 6 sessions for a NASA weekend compared to 9. If that is the tipping point for you then the decision is clear, go SPM and have a great time racing!!!!!!!!

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    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamz14 View Post
    William is correct, 6 sessions for a NASA weekend compared to 9.
    it is 6 sessions for NASA weekend compared to 12 sessions for SV weekend (which includes MC-TT).
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    James, I just purchased two sets of new rims so now I'll be doing what you're doing. Biggest issue is that currently half of my tires are SM6es and the others are RRs. At this time, my plan is to eventually replace the SM6es with RRs since I can run the RR in both NASA and SCCA (Cal Club) SM events. I think the RRs are reasonably competitive with SM6es.

    As an FYI to anyone here, the Cal Club (SoCal SCCA) has an open tire rule for regional SM racing. NASA does not.

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    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif emilio700's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamz14 View Post
    Mike, if people are concerned about the cost you can be penny wise and pound foolish. Invest in multiple rim sets so that you are not toasting your race tires and having to buy stickers every race weekend. Get the most out of what you are spending. When I can I will be buying a 3rd set of rims so that we can extend our tire program even further. With multiple rim sets you can be competitive on 5 HC tires. That doesn't mean that it wouldn't be a good idea to go out on shaved stickers if you want that advantage. But that is the same for whatever tire SPM is thinking about running. Shaved new will be faster than unshaved old regardless of the tire in almost all cases. I am trying to compare apples to apples. Maybe I am wrong and we will get destroyed this coming weekend on our old Toyos.

    But you guys are right - If we were in contention for the championship that we care about, we would have gone out on stickers. But so would you in this new class. Devil IS in the details and that was my original point about the comparison that is being made to PTE class racing. Seemed to be full of details that were being presented in the best possible light to support the idea that SPM is the panacea for expensive racing. Racing is expensive period.
    I understand your argument but you're admittedly tweaking the context both ways to prove your point.

    "our RR's last 3 races" But admit to not being as competitive as you would be with fresh tires

    "Even RC-1's would be faster if shaved". This assumes someone is willing to outspend everyone else to win. Not a direct comparison to your first example. In any case, this theoretical money bags SPM racer is a ghost. They would go directly to NASA, SCCA and not even be interested in SPM.

    You make it sound as if I either we have no idea what the real costs for SCCA or NASA are or we simply skewing the facts. This is forgetting that as a team, we have BTDT. Not as backmarkers either. A semi trailer full of tires worth of experience with NT01's, R6's A6's, SM6's, RR's, a shelf full of trophies and national championships. We know what the costs are all to intimately. This is precisely why we created SuperMiata. I don't collect entry fees, Aaron does. I just want a place to race and save maybe $30K/yr.

    SPM costs less than racing any production car (not karts , legends etc) in NASA or SCCA give the same level of competitiveness. Measured as running at the front, mid pack or merely showing up, either way. Apples to apples, SPM costs less.
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    But obviously I just dont get it. -fatbillybob

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamz14 View Post
    William is correct, 6 sessions for a NASA weekend compared to 9. If that is the tipping point for you then the decision is clear, go SPM and have a great time racing!!!!!!!!
    And the lower cost engine
    and the lower cost fuel
    and the lower entry fee
    and the longer lasting tires
    and the lower... lap times than SM


    I appreciate your fervor in defending NASA Spec Miata but your're taking the wrong tack. SM has bigger fields, more bragging rights and a televised national championship. SPM can not even compare on those points. But
    attacking our statements on cost is a losing battle. We have BTDT and no exactly what it costs, that is why we are even having this discussion. If it wasn't cheaper, trust me, I would have nothing to do with it.

    Heading out to lunch now. When I get back I'm going to tune Alex's race engine. A $600 junkyard special with barely 160psi compression. From experience, I know we can coax the 140whp power cap on $3.49/gallon E85 so he can run at the front.
    You can't imagine how sweet that is.
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    Aside from their cost I never understood why people race them.
    But obviously I just dont get it. -fatbillybob

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamz14 View Post
    Tires will last 3 weekends and be competitive.
    I lol'd IRL

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeColangelo View Post
    I think the RRs are reasonably competitive with SM6es.
    I wish this were true.
    Last edited by Savington; 10-01-2013 at 01:18 PM.
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    Emilio,

    I think it is a direct comparison.

    I say that if I wanted to chase the win I would put stickers on if I needed to in SM. I would do the same if I needed to in SPM. Your point is that no one will in SPM. Ok, fair enough.

    New shaved RR is faster than unshaved old RR. New shaved whatever SPM runs will be faster than used unshaved whatever SPM runs. Again your point is that no one will do it in SPM. Ok, fair enough.

    So the question comes down to what do you want to do with racing? Emilio, I know who you guys are and I have a deep respect for your knowledge and experience. You have defined the SPM target customer. With that definition in place, I would recommend SPM to all reading this thread. I concur with Emilio that it will be the cheapest production car racing around.

    For me personally, I enjoy racing an engine that I built (contrary to popular belief you can build a "pro" level motor in SM yourself if you put in the research time). I enjoy making the chassis and running gear a big part of the equation instead of bolt on power to overcome poor running gear and chassis setup. I enjoy knowing that my hubs are freshly serviced before each race, that my brake slides are lubed and running free, that my half shafts and CV joints are in good condition. But that is probably because I am the mechanic and not the driver. But as a small side note point; a well serviced non junkyard car is much much safer than running a junkyard engine car. Even with identical safety gear in the car. A car that doesn't break is safer than any car that blows up. I ran a junkyard motor. It lasted exactly 3 track days. My "pro" built motor lasted one season. We will see how long my home brew pro built motor will last. But so far, my home pro built motor is putting out 4 more HP than the "pro" motor I originally bought. It all comes down to what you want personally for your racing program. We are not a money bag team. Anyone that has seen our program knows this. We are the poor people in SM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Savington View Post
    I lol'd IRL
    Ok I guess I am crazy.

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    Emilio, can you tell us some info on the miatas that are running in your series? Like, are there 1.6s, or mostly 1.8s, 99s, and newer? And roughly whats the range of their race weight and hp?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bueller View Post
    Emilio, can you tell us some info on the miatas that are running in your series? Like, are there 1.6s, or mostly 1.8s, 99s, and newer? And roughly whats the range of their race weight and hp?
    Not the ideal thread for this question. Read through this SoCal SuperMiata thread

    and this
    SuperMiata Rules & Regulations | SuperMiata – Miata Challenge

    You'll need a 1.8 to be competitive. Fresh 99-05 engine will make class power on pump gas. 94-97 1.8 or worn out 99-05 will need E85.
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    But obviously I just dont get it. -fatbillybob

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    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bueller View Post
    Emilio, can you tell us some info on the miatas that are running in your series? Like, are there 1.6s, or mostly 1.8s, 99s, and newer? And roughly whats the range of their race weight and hp?
    SuperMiata Rules & Regulations | SuperMiata Miata Challenge

    Richard's version:

    140whp cap, but there is a formula for calculating area under the curve (so no built engine).... basically any 1.8 will get there.....formula is ECU, intake, exhaust, junkyard engine and may be E85.
    2,300LB minimum comp weight - easily doable with a 220LB driver. and doable with a 300LB driver if you work on it.
    front EP dam, and rear spoiler
    spec 205/50-15 RC1 tire at special price of just under $110.
    any suspension (but max limit of $2.5k ? which covers 95% Miata suspension)

    still working on getting 1.6 to get there. won't be easy, but 1.6SM are ridiculous cheap and plenty...may be lower comp weight. or may be just allow them to drop in a junkyard $700 1.8.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bellwilliam View Post
    ..
    still working on getting 1.6 to get there. won't be easy, but 1.6SM are ridiculous cheap and plenty...may be lower comp weight. or may be just allow them to drop in a junkyard $700 1.8.
    I was kicking around the idea of building a 2250# E85 burning 1.6 to see if it could hold it's own against the 2300# 140whp 1.8's. I have a really healthy junkyard 1.6 (190psi) from the wrecked '91 and the OGK tub that already has a Miatacage installed. What do you think?
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    Aside from their cost I never understood why people race them.
    But obviously I just dont get it. -fatbillybob

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