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Thread: Cost analysis for club racing

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    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif emilio700's Avatar
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    Default Cost analysis for club racing

    I asked William to crunch the numbers for me. Our intent with SuperMiata was to bring club racing to it's roots. Just good racing and no frills. To attract racers, we knew we would have to keep costs down to a minimum. Here's how things add up.

    SuperMiata
    vs
    National club racing (in least expensive class in a Miata)

    Registration - race and TT
    $280.00 SPM
    $579.00 National
    - National add $50 if registered <14 days before event, or $100 more if registered onsite

    Tire cost per weekend
    Hoosier SM6 lasts 1 wknd, Maxxis RC1 lasts 2 wknds
    $220.00 SPM
    $660.00 National

    Cost difference / weekend - registration and tires
    $500.00 SPM
    $1,239.00 National


    Other considerations

    Transponder rental
    $20.00 SPM
    $40.00 National

    Tire cost for one set: vs.
    $440.00 SPM - Maxxis RC1
    $660.00 PTE -Hoosier SM6

    Yearly membership
    $0.00 SPM
    $45.00 National

    # of sessions per weekend
    12 SPM
    14 National

    # of races per weekend
    3 SPM
    2 National
    SPM is 3 races per weekend, 1 on Saturday, 2 on Sunday. NASA is 1 race per day

    # of downloads per weekend (mandatory)
    4 SPM
    8 National
    - National TT and race group are back to back, with downloads, you can't run all TT and race
    sessions. May be 10 sessions per weekend. SV race group runs in red group (TT), so there is
    no back to back issue, although 1 race per day is back to back. So about 10 sessions per weekend

    # of driver's meeting per weekend
    4 SPM
    4 National
    - SV do not require TT driver's meeting, if you've done it on Saturday. So you can wake up late
    after Saturday's night's BBQ and beer

    Getting out early on Sunday
    1pm ish
    3pm ish
    - SPM's last race on Sunday is around 1pm ish. NASA PT group is always later on Sunday.

    TT driver's meeting on each day
    8am or later SPM
    7am National

    Licensing
    This is a big variable. The Speed Ventures / SuperMiata comp license is free to any person cleared for the red run group. You just have to go through a checkout session with the race director, usually Aaron. With most National club race groups, a comp license can cost a racer anywhere from $500-2500 once you add up fees for one of the approved racing schools and paid for the comp license fees. This might be the single largest cost savings with SPM compared to any National organization.

    We haven't talked about the spec for the cars but it's pretty much the same thing, 50-75% less up front cost to build a competitive SPM than a competitive PTE or Spec Miata.
    WWW.949RACING.COM
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    Aside from their cost I never understood why people race them.
    But obviously I just dont get it. -fatbillybob

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    I wanna go fast! thepass's Avatar
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    When you mention TT, are you referring to the concurrent Miata Challenge series or just normal lapping sessions? Another nice element I see is that Supermiata racers can also participate in the MC time trial series on the same weekend.

    -Ryan
    Ryan Passey
    Singulär Motorsports | Goodwin Racing

    #13 1990 Miata
    "The sport dedicating to the spirits of time attacking motoring" -Emilio

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    Señor Member b3d3g1's Avatar
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    I just want to make it clear the tire costs are to be competitive in each series.
    -Anthony
    1991 Miata - Trogdor SuperMiata
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    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thepass View Post
    When you mention TT, are you referring to the concurrent Miata Challenge series or just normal lapping sessions? Another nice element I see is that Supermiata racers can also participate in the MC time trial series on the same weekend.

    -Ryan
    yes, TT = Miata Challenge..
    SuperMiata drivers can also run Miata Challenge....but SHOULD, because of the $30 discount given to MC competitors, no reason not to.
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    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
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    What do you mean by national? National is a SCCA thing. PTE is a NASA thing.

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    IMO , it is a bit disingenuous to compare SPM to nationals or runoffs. They are not comparable with regards to prestige and are significantly different events. A better comparison would be to regional SCCA or NASA SM events. In those cases the entry cost is much less and tires will last 2 to 3 weekends and still be competitive. This probably doesn't completely collapse the cost differences but it gets it pretty close. And if you are pretty close, and you are still weighing cost as a factor, then I think you are in for a surprise as to what it really cost to put a car on a track. At that point, have more fun for less money and kart race. Then you can be a real open wheel star for a fraction of the cost to run a SPM or SM.

    Emilio, My comments are not meant to throw water on your objective to get this class off the ground. I wish you all the luck in the world to do so and I would support you in anyway that I can.

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    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif emilio700's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamz14 View Post
    IMO , it is a bit disingenuous to compare SPM to nationals or runoffs. They are not comparable with regards to prestige and are significantly different events. A better comparison would be to regional SCCA or NASA SM events. In those cases the entry cost is much less and tires will last 2 to 3 weekends and still be competitive. This probably doesn't completely collapse the cost differences but it gets it pretty close. And if you are pretty close, and you are still weighing cost as a factor, then I think you are in for a surprise as to what it really cost to put a car on a track. At that point, have more fun for less money and kart race. Then you can be a real open wheel star for a fraction of the cost to run a SPM or SM.

    Emilio, My comments are not meant to throw water on your objective to get this class off the ground. I wish you all the luck in the world to do so and I would support you in anyway that I can.
    Those are regional prices. Actual national championships cost about 4x more.

    I was not valuing nor measuring prestige. In the end, who cares? I just want to race without the fluff and extra cost. That modest bit of "prestige" comes with a price tag.

    The big national organizations give you a national championships and contingencies for the few drivers that win everything. That's it. As one of those winning drivers, I can tell you that even with contingencies, its still way more expensive than SPM and the racing isn't actually as good most of the time.
    slodrew likes this.
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    Aside from their cost I never understood why people race them.
    But obviously I just dont get it. -fatbillybob

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    Ok, fair enough. But a NASA weekend regional race cost you $350 or so, not $579. Tires do cost 6-7 hundred but will last just fine for 2-3 weekends. The racing has been great for us in NASA. If SPM is even more fun and the racing better with bigger fields, that is very cool and people should consider SPM.

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    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamz14 View Post
    Ok, fair enough. But a NASA weekend regional race cost you $350 or so, not $579. Tires do cost 6-7 hundred but will last just fine for 2-3 weekends. The racing has been great for us in NASA. If SPM is even more fun and the racing better with bigger fields, that is very cool and people should consider SPM.
    He's assuming you want to TT (heh), and he's comparing what it took to be competitive in PTE, not NASA SM.

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    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamz14 View Post
    Ok, fair enough. But a NASA weekend regional race cost you $350 or so, not $579. Tires do cost 6-7 hundred but will last just fine for 2-3 weekends. The racing has been great for us in NASA. If SPM is even more fun and the racing better with bigger fields, that is very cool and people should consider SPM.
    $579 ($50 more if no early registration, $100 more if onsite) is for both TT and race.....as SPM weekend includes running Miata Challenge (they are on the same weekend).

    contingency catch - if there is a big field, your chance of winning any contingency just went down. if there is a small field, there is no contingency......
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    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    to be competitive in PTE or PTD, you need to spend $$$....trust me on this. you have no chance unless with a built engine and fresh SM6. both Andrew and I (in E) were ahead of the field by over 1.5-2 second. Sonny (in PTD) was ahead of the field by over 2-3 seconds.....

    I would love to say it was due to my (our) superman driving skill....but:

    built engine for the power curve....I once told a competitor (when he was questioning our power output): "we have the same 140whp power at end of T1 (say WSIR), but I guarantee you have >120whp at exit of T9, whereas I have 140whp........." his jaw dropped.....
    * I am exaggerate a little here, but not by much....

    Fresh Hoosier is worth so much (other tires heat cycle a little better), it is ridiculous...so if one competitor brings a fresh Hoosier and you are not, you are screwed....so you always bring fresh Hoosiers. that's close to $800 mounted.
    Last edited by bellwilliam; 10-01-2013 at 09:53 AM.
    Supermiata S1, SuperMiata S2, Supermiata S3
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    I wanna go fast! thepass's Avatar
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    Well contingency anything is a moot point because there isn't any in SP, so how hard it is to get/how unhelpful it is for covering racing costs in NASA, that's neither here nor there.

    However, the lack of contingency money might allow a novel concept; gentleman's racing. Plenty competitive, but not the cutthroat/everyone's looking for ways to cheat type of stuff that happen when greed and glory are on the table...
    Ryan Passey
    Singulär Motorsports | Goodwin Racing

    #13 1990 Miata
    "The sport dedicating to the spirits of time attacking motoring" -Emilio

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    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif Blackbird's Avatar
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    Contingency might not play a role in SPM races at this point (mainly because these are more of pilot races than a series at this point), but we do have pretty cool prizes in Miata Challenge.
    Just this last event top finishers in all classes received ~$700 worth of Blackbird Fabworx gift certificates
    And, in a little twist that we put on that, vendors are not eligible to collect prizes, so the gift certs that Emilio (2nd place) and myself (3rd) were supposed to get for our finishing position, moved on to 4th and 5th places.

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    Quote Originally Posted by robburgoon View Post
    He's assuming you want to TT (heh), and he's comparing what it took to be competitive in PTE, not NASA SM.
    Oh, ok. Well then in that case, if you want to narrowly define the comparison down to only look at it this way, then SPM is great. Again, I wish you guys all the best and hope that it works out to be the best racing for the price.

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    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
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    Gentleman's racing evaporates as soon as anyone cares about winning. You can't have it both ways.

    PTE was pretty tame until the 949 crowd showed up and forced everyone to do all that curve shaping.

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    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamz14 View Post
    if you want to narrowly define the comparison .
    then don't narrowly define.

    if you run PTE vs. SPM. SPM is still cheaper by quite a bit AND with ~12 sessions (SV) vs. 6 sessions (NASA) for the weekend.

    *note that SV SPM is an add on for $20 per day. so it will always comes with green/red group TT sessions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bellwilliam View Post
    then don't narrowly define.

    if you run PTE vs. SPM. SPM is still cheaper by quite a bit AND with ~12 sessions (SV) vs. 6 sessions (NASA) for the weekend.

    *note that SV SPM is an add on for $20 per day. so it will always comes with green/red group TT sessions.
    Then in that case I go back to my original statement; NASA SM weekend is $350 ( yes you can add on the late fees if that is what you want to do ). Tires will last 3 weekends and be competitive. That seems to be about the same cost.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamz14 View Post
    Then in that case I go back to my original statement; NASA SM weekend is $350 ( yes you can add on the late fees if that is what you want to do ). Tires will last 3 weekends and be competitive. That seems to be about the same cost.
    Competitive as in capable of the same lap times in the same conditions, for a podium after 9 heat cycles or battling for 6th with the other guys on old tires?

    Measured by that yardstick, a set of Maxxis RC-1's would be "competitive" for about 8 races
    Last edited by emilio700; 10-01-2013 at 11:06 AM.
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    But obviously I just dont get it. -fatbillybob

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    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamz14 View Post
    Tires will last 3 weekends and be competitive.
    your Hoosier (sorry, but if you are not running Hoosier, then you are not competitive) will last you 3 weekends ?
    that means you will probably make RC1 last the whole year then.

    I can't make Hoosier last more than 1 weekend, and expect to be competitive the next weekend.

    and this is for R6. for A6 (what Sonny ran in D at National TT), I couldn't make them competitive past 2nd session...
    Last edited by bellwilliam; 10-01-2013 at 11:06 AM.
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    We run Toyo RR's . At the regional level they will last 3 weekends and be able to podium. This assumes that you have multiple rim sets and you have a program that rotates in tires to practice on and tires to race on. That means that you will have a max of 5 cycles on your race tires when you take the last session of the 3rd weekend. If Rob will come out and play with us at Buttonwillow the next round, we can give you a really good idea on how a set of 5 HC tires will compare to whatever he will be running.

    The Toyo RR seems to have its best lap around lap 4 of the 1st HC. After that it falls off a couple of tenths and tends to stabilize until there is no tread groove left. It will then drop a bit more as you go onto the harder of the dual compounds and stay good until it cords.

    My main point was that if we are splitting hairs this tight and this is the deciding factor as to whether you race one series or another, I think you have bigger surprises awaiting you in either class if your goal is to truly win. Rob is right, guys that want to win will increase the cost no matter what. Yes you might be able to get a year on the tires you guys are selecting, but all it takes is one guy to decide that it is worth buying a new set because he can get a tenth or two more out of them. Then you will have guys that will start shaving, Etc .

    Emilio, if you are talking about whether we can run at the front at the nationals with 5 HC tires, you know the answer to that and it is no we can't. But the title of this thread was cost analysis for club racing. For club racing we can be very competitive. I consider nationals from either org to be a bit above the definition of club racing and was the point of my "prestige" comment. A fairer cost comparison between what you guys are doing and what the national orgs are doing would be to compare it to SM regional races and not PTE national championship events. If you want to compare to that I capitulate the point and you guys are right, way cheaper for you to run SPM. Probably much cheaper to run than a regional PTE class too. But PTE regional isn't the only choice for Miata owners. Which was the point of the comment about narrowly defining the cost comparison.

    Look, you guys are coming up with a great new class option for Miata drivers. I am all for that. I want you guys to succeed. Is SPM the lowest for the best competition? Maybe. But this last weekend we saw 30 cars at the race at the regional NASA race at Sonoma and the level of competition was top notch and the driving was very clean. So all I am saying is to pick the class you want for the reasons that you decide are important to you. Just don't be surprised if a simple cost analysis based on entry fees and tires only is going to give you the entire picture on what it is going to take to be competitive in any organization or race series. Go in with eyes wide open about what it takes to win against guys that will do anything to beat you. And BTW, the 6th place we achieved this last weekend was ahead of a guy named Kyle Loustanau who was 2nd at the runoffs I have heard and this was at his home track on our 6 HC tires. A track we have never run before this weekend. So I don't feel too bad about racing in 6th. Granted, Kyles car was misbehaving in a bad way. But 2 more laps and we would have had a shot on the 5th place car too. These guys were on good tires.

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