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Thread: C7 ZO6 most powerful Loser??

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    Senior Member fatbillybob's Avatar
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    Default C7 ZO6 most powerful Loser??

    This is all over the internet:

    Is a Conservative ECU Tune Responsible for Power Loss on the 2015 Corvette Z06?


    Why would GM build a car with the "engineering" solution to detune it once you have had a taste of play? Why do owners need to sacrifice the warranty just to do a casual trackday? This reminds me of fake rear spoilers. Remember the early LS3 motors that blew up on track? The aftermarket had to rescue with drysump that GM later put into the C6 gransport. What an engineering disappointment! Pay full price and sacrifice a warranty just to get more than a few laps at speed? Homey don't play that!
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    Not Certified Slow SDSUsnowboards's Avatar
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    I'm not sure what to think. It's just losing power, not becoming undrivable. No one has demonstrated how much power it's losing. The supercharged lotus cars lose power as well when put under stress. Do Ferrari's come with a 5 year, 100,000 warranty? Do lambos? Does anything else in that performance range come with a comparable warranty? Do any of them get similar MPGs? Do any of them have as much storage space? This seems to me like wanting to have and eat a cake. The vette is an everyman's super car. This issue seems to reflect that.

    Remember when using launch control on a GTR voided the warranty?
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    Spec Backhoe Champion redtopz's Avatar
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    Homey don't play that LOL. That's what you have to expect with forced induction and making the car reliable on low octane fuel. Remember most people won't ever get the engine over 5000 rpm on their way to show and shines and coffee and cars. Let's say 5% of all the owners will take the car to a roadcourse (and that's being generous). 90% of them won't be able to use half the power of that car anyway and won't notice if timing is being pulled or not. The remaining 10% can get a 2nd ECU, save the original for warranty, and easily mod/tune the **** out of it for more power. That's 0.5% of C7Z owners by my estimation. So GM seems to be designing the car for 99.5% of the buyers.

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    BMW Master bawareca's Avatar
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    Because GM gives to the people what they want,that's why
    Even more so disturbing is the statement of the PR that if someone is not happy may just ditch it's warranty and go with aftermarket tune Translated:Look at what GTR,EVO and STi guys are doing and do not complain much.At least they could've created their own tunning master affiliate that would offer more performance without sacrificing the warranty.Looks like GM is not sure in their product and say:"We'll give you 100 k miles warranty,but only if you drive slow".
    But I am still waiting to see when the new Miata weight baloon will explode.
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    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
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    There has to be a way for chevy to spin this or cook up a deal to make both demographics happy. Maybe have a memo for recommend mods for track use and ways to keep the warranty.

    Might be worth shooting Tadge an email.

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    So is the issue just a conservative programming that pulls timing/adds fuel when tracking the car? I think we all knew a forced induction Corvette wouldn't be good for a track car.

    Solution: Viper.
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    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif emilio700's Avatar
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    It just hit me that Trackday bro is now more important than drag strip times to the marketing depts of all the manufacturers. 1/4 time still a part of the media package but any new performance model must stop and turn if it to be seen as legitimate. If the car overheats in one lap, so be it.

    The viper video is a minor media storm but it does not tell a new story. Every single performance car made in the last 20 years pulls a bunch of timing and dumps extra fuel when coolant or something else gets hot. Sonny works at Exotics and tells me that every single car in their stable loses power from heat soak, the Audi R10 being the worst to the point of nearing limp mode speed without actually being in limp mode. The 458 Speciale loses the least, but it still overheats and has to be pedaled after a few laps. Does the Viper in question have better cooling? Sounds like.
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    BMW Master bawareca's Avatar
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    ^^^^True!But the question is how much of a safety margin the manufacturer embeded in the code.If they are overly protective is as bad as if the car is under-engineered or Tadge's guys just got a bit carried away after the enormous success of the C7.I suspect a good mix of both.
    It also highly depends on the track.Tracks like BRP are disaster for high powered cars and something like the speedway is much better.

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    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif emilio700's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bawareca View Post
    ^^^^True!But the question is how much of a safety margin the manufacturer embeded in the code.If they are overly protective is as bad as if the car is under-engineered or Tadge's guys just got a bit carried away after the enormous success of the C7.I suspect a good mix of both.
    It also highly depends on the track.Tracks like BRP are disaster for high powered cars and something like the speedway is much better.
    Knowing that only a few short years ago there was no Corvette program, it points to this car being rushed through design, production engineering phases. Ultra conservative ECU safeties and it's rather portly state tend to back up that hypothesis.
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    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    sometime last year in GM headquarter, a meeting went like this:

    marketing: We need 1,000 whp to sell Z06 with 100k miles warranty
    Engineering: I can only make a 500whp z06 that runs reliably in all conditions
    marketing: but 99% of our customer only use it to get latte at Starbucks, only 1% will track it.
    Engineering: true dat...of that 1%, 90% can't go under 2 minutes at BW13 anyway.
    marketing: so why cater to 0.1% ?
    Engineering: got it, I will build a tune for 1,000whp. when it detects >.5g or speed >100mph, it defaults to 500whp
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    Quote Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
    Every single performance car made in the last 20 years pulls a bunch of timing and dumps extra fuel when coolant or something else gets hot.
    True but this is so bad in the C7 Z06 that waxers and polishers are complaining about it. And is timing pulled because it got hot or timing pulled prematurely to protect and under-engineered car? Why didn't they do a track key like Mustang? Maybe because the new Z06 can't handle its own output because the systems around it are marginally rated. As incestuous systems look for CAN line feedback can a C7 Z06 ECU just be swapped out for a different program to avoid warranty issues with the stock ECU? It is not possible to swap Ferrari ECU's back and forth without major issues for example.

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    BMW Master bawareca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatbillybob View Post
    As incestuous systems look for CAN line feedback can a C7 Z06 ECU just be swapped out for a different program to avoid warranty issues with the stock ECU? It is not possible to swap Ferrari ECU's back and forth without major issues for example.
    It actually could be done,if not easy.That is so called computer "clone".Pretty much only the newest BMW ECUs cannot be cloned,there are ways around everything else.You read the complete program from the original ECU,buy a used one and transfer everything in it.Then you start tuning and experimenting.When the car has to go to the dealer you just install the original ECU and you're as good as new.All VW/Audi ECU's could be read without physically open the box.

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    The intercooling capacity is way too small for any sustained WOT use.

    2015-corvette-z06-lt4-engine-gm-007_a.jpg


    The ECU is probably retarding timing in direct relationship to intake temperatures, as most FI cars do, to avoid detonation. So I wouldn´t say it´s a "conservative ECU tune" at fault here, but packaging/cost constraints that limited intercooling efficiency.
    Last edited by Nurburgring; 12-12-2014 at 03:29 PM.
    Less powah is better

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    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
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    Ok, maybe Tadge still has our backs. The plan was to create this powerful C7Z06 that can't handle track use, make all the moneybags dump their C6Z06 cars and buy it instead, thus flooding the market with cheaper C6Z06s for us.

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    Senior Member fatbillybob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bawareca View Post
    It actually could be done,if not easy.That is so called computer "clone".Pretty much only the newest BMW ECUs cannot be cloned,there are ways around everything else.You read the complete program from the original ECU,buy a used one and transfer everything in it.Then you start tuning and experimenting.When the car has to go to the dealer you just install the original ECU and you're as good as new.All VW/Audi ECU's could be read without physically open the box.
    In Ferrari world we have a very small aftermarket braintrust so no aftermarket breaking into ECU's though some claim to partially do it with unverifiable results. Since the very old 1997 5.2 motronic ECU Ferrari has married an immobilizer with the ECU. Once done that ECU is only functional on that car. Some Ferraris used 2 ECU's and one was married. So in the breaker yards you can buy an ECU on total luck and it might be an unmarried worker or a married brick. So that market is basically dead. Ferrari wants your first born for a new ECU. So that market is dead.

    Old C5/C6 Vettes you can swap out an ECU and ECU's on Ebay were under 200 bucks. For my racecar I carry one extra as a spare.

    Is it possible that even if you can swap ECU's That the mileage or something else in the chassis (odometer) will not match the miles clock in the ECU and your warranty will be void? OEM's are constantly trying to stay 1 step ahead of the aftermarket. This is a real problem in diesel truck world.

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    Senior Member fatbillybob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robburgoon View Post
    Ok, maybe Tadge still has our backs. The plan was to create this powerful C7Z06 that can't handle track use, make all the moneybags dump their C6Z06 cars and buy it instead, thus flooding the market with cheaper C6Z06s for us.
    Maybe if GM makes a normally aspirated C7 gransport version that will be the car to own. Isn't the new C7 Z06 really like the C7 ZR1?
    Richard EVO and JJ1 like this.

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    This whole thing sucks . . .
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    I was disappointed that the C7 Z06 was supercharged. Sure, a blower sounds cool, makes instant power everywhere, but the amount of heat they create is counterproductive.

    I think that's a big advantage to the Viper. Enormous V10 naturally aspirated with enough cooling capacity to survive a full lapping session.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fatbillybob View Post
    Maybe if GM makes a normally aspirated C7 gransport version that will be the car to own. Isn't the new C7 Z06 really like the C7 ZR1?
    Carl -

    I think you hit the nail on the head. Who was tracking a C6 ZR1?
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    The deposed former Sheriff of trackHQ . . .

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    BMW Master bawareca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatbillybob View Post
    In Ferrari world we have a very small aftermarket braintrust so no aftermarket breaking into ECU's though some claim to partially do it with unverifiable results. Since the very old 1997 5.2 motronic ECU Ferrari has married an immobilizer with the ECU. Once done that ECU is only functional on that car. Some Ferraris used 2 ECU's and one was married. So in the breaker yards you can buy an ECU on total luck and it might be an unmarried worker or a married brick. So that market is basically dead. Ferrari wants your first born for a new ECU. So that market is dead.

    Old C5/C6 Vettes you can swap out an ECU and ECU's on Ebay were under 200 bucks. For my racecar I carry one extra as a spare.

    Is it possible that even if you can swap ECU's That the mileage or something else in the chassis (odometer) will not match the miles clock in the ECU and your warranty will be void? OEM's are constantly trying to stay 1 step ahead of the aftermarket. This is a real problem in diesel truck world.
    That is what I tried to explain.The immobilizer is in the program.When you read the COMPLETE file inside and write it to another ECU the immobilizer goes with it.ME5.2 Motronic are widely used on VW/AUDI cars,it takes me about 3 minutes to remove the immobilizer forever.The most protected ECU's today are the BMW and with my equipment I can read and transfer the immobiliser codes(it is actually same principle as secured internet pages-using 128 bit encryption).
    The problem is that the last generation Tricore processors used in engine control modules have all the data inside,and it requires a password to make the processor "talk" to you.Tuning equipment manufacturers are always finding some back doors,but after a few years the OEMs close them.Looks like now the last door will be closed soon and that may be the end of it.
    Loosk like this Z06 stuff may worth a look into.I am sure it will not be some kind of Pentagon type security,so the things may work after some years.
    JJ1 likes this.

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