+ Reply to Thread
Page 8 of 9 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 LastLast
Results 141 to 160 of 161

Thread: Big Willow June 28th and 29th.

  1. #141
    Senior Member T1Autobahn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    192
    Liked
    0 times

    Default

    This is simply just a question with regard to WSIR being a momentum track. Does that mean that if you have an extra 200hp at WSIR, you're not going to get a better time? Of course we're talking about same driver and same car. The only difference would be hp.
    Last edited by T1Autobahn; 07-09-2008 at 09:50 PM.
    -Timothy

    Exige S #777

    www.T1Autobahn.com

  2. #142
    Professor Chaos thefrush's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Sacramento, CA
    Posts
    1,087
    Liked
    1 times

    Default

    I think the point they're trying to make is that an extra 200hp at Willow won't make as big of a difference than at other tracks.
    "The crashes people remember, but drivers remember the near misses" -Mario Andretti

  3. #143
    Chest hair required Olitho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    5,110
    Liked
    2216 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by thefrush View Post
    I think the point they're trying to make is that an extra 200hp at Willow won't make as big of a difference than at other tracks.

    Correct. At WSIR investing in 200HP will get you less time improvement than what you would get at CalSpeedway or Laguna Seca as Emilio points out.

    And here is a contrarian thought. I love to pose contrarian thoughts. If you are not comfortable with the extra speed the extra 200 HP gives you and you get nervous going into turn 8, 9, 1, 2 and 3 and over-brake because you don't know how to carry the momentum into the turn, I will postulate that you may not see a speed improvement at all, or even go slower... at least until you start getting the new speed and horsepower dialed in and feel comfortable with it.

    Fire-away Theo from your Briggs & Stratton powered Miata.

  4. #144
    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    6,862
    Liked
    1430 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Olitho View Post
    Correct. At WSIR investing in 200HP will get you less time improvement than what you would get at CalSpeedway or Laguna Seca as Emilio points out.

    And here is a contrarian thought. I love to pose contrarian thoughts. If you are not comfortable with the extra speed the extra 200 HP gives you and you get nervous going into turn 8, 9, 1, 2 and 3 and over-brake because you don't know how to carry the momentum into the turn, I will postulate that you may not see a speed improvement at all, or even go slower... at least until you start getting the new speed and horsepower dialed in and feel comfortable with it.

    Fire-away Theo from your Briggs & Stratton powered Miata.
    I'll buy that. Several of the corners at Big Willow take less brainpower in a miata because its not physically possible to go in too fast unless you are way off line. Lower workload.

  5. #145
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    10,979
    Liked
    1477 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Olitho View Post
    If you are not comfortable with the extra speed the extra 200 HP gives you and you get nervous going into turn 8, 9, 1, 2 and 3 and over-brake . . .
    Who brakes into Turn 8? Complete N00bs. I am full throttle from the exit of 5 until the entry to 9, where I only lift and then shift down from 5th to 4th -- no brake for 9. And only sissies brake into Turn 2.

    I use my brakes before 1, 3 and 5. That's it. It's a hp track.

    Oli, the only thing you ever drive on track is a 400+ hp Corvette. What do you know about low hp momentum cars?
    Last edited by Richard EVO; 07-10-2008 at 09:37 AM.
    The deposed former Sheriff of trackHQ . . .

    2006 Porsche 997 Carerra Coupe 6-MT - daily driver
    1992 Honda (Acura) NSX 5-MT - classic investment I couldn't resist and occasionally drive
    2004 Honda S2000 AP2 6-MT - track day car
    2006 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution IX MR 6-MT - when I need a backseat, 4-doors, or a real trunk, and still want to haul ass . . .

  6. #146
    Driver upgrade 2.51 JC3D's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Venice Beach
    Posts
    1,032
    Liked
    0 times

    Default

    Let's solve this once and for all. I declare the Sub Compact Cup. We all rent sub compacts from hertz or wherever, and go to big willow. Then we can see if momentum drivers or hp drivers are faster there.
    John
    #522 996 Spec / GTS3
    JC3D // Racecars and Keyframes // 996 Spec

  7. #147
    Professor Chaos thefrush's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Sacramento, CA
    Posts
    1,087
    Liked
    1 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JC3D View Post
    Then we can see if momentum drivers or hp drivers are faster there.
    What about the fast drivers, where do we go?
    "The crashes people remember, but drivers remember the near misses" -Mario Andretti

  8. #148
    enjoys driving fast Jack Olsen's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    529
    Liked
    378 times

    Default

    No track is exclusively a 'horsepower' or a 'momentum' track. More power and less weight will always help, but one or the other will help more in specific types of corners and corner combinations.

    The easiest way to see where horsepower is going to play the big factor isn't long straights, it's straights that are preceded by a tight, 2nd-gear turn. Low weight (and/or a well-engineered suspension) will help in 3rd- and 4th-gear doglegs, as well as combinations with quick camber, elevation and directional changes that might upset the balance of a heavier car.

    Willow Springs has no 2nd gear turns at all. The corners right before the straights are 4th gear (9) and high-3rd/low-4th (6). Both of those favor lighter cars. Willow's one tight section has some quick camber and elevation changes, which also favor lighter cars, especially since there isn't a very long straight coming out of 4.

    Sears Point, Laguna and Thunderhill all have 2nd-gear turns that lead to long straights and give an advantage to higher-hp cars. Of course, they also have some high-speed 3rd- and 4th-gear doglegs, so there are also sections that will favor lighter cars. Thunderhill is a great track because it rewards both types of cars pretty equally -- if you can't dig yourself out of 14/15, you can still fly through 6, 7, 8 and 9. Laguna doesn't have very long straights (I don't think I get into 5th at all there), but it still rewards horsepower coming out of 5 and 11.

    More horsepower will never make you slower, of course, but Willow is definitely a momentum track. I think some people get confused about it because it has such long straights -- and at some point everybody learns that horsepower creates disproportionate rewards (relative to weight) when it comes to top speed testing. (Once you're moving, light weight is less of a factor than power, going in a straight line.) Or maybe we've all been forced to watch too much Nascar. But most of Willow isn't straight, and there aren't any 2nd-gear 'holes' that a car needs to dig itself out of. You can enter both of the track's straights at a good clip if your car is light enough. My 250-hp car can keep up with a lot of 500-hp cars at Willow, where those same guys will bury me at Laguna Seca. For the sake of lap times, it might actually be more important to look at how your car carries speed through turn 2 than through turn 8. (Of course, you can't slow down anywhere if you want to get good times at Willow.) But good speed in 2 means you've got a car that will likely be able to carry a lot of speed through turns 1, 4, 5 and 9.

    One driver's opinion.

    Here's my fastest videotaped lap at Willow, a 1:29.1 -- I added speed information from my data logger to each corner. It's a very quick lap for me, but I get passed going into turn 8 like I'm standing still. There's always somebody who's faster -- and in this case, they were also a lot lighter.
    Last edited by Jack Olsen; 07-16-2008 at 11:07 PM.

  9. #149
    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    6,862
    Liked
    1430 times

    Default

    Holy smokes that car sounds rad. What a lap!

  10. #150
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    10,979
    Liked
    1477 times

    Default

    Jack's car is tits. If it was a completely clean lap, shouldn't he be able to theoretically go a little faster than 1:29.1 since he had to stay off line on the back straight to let the 2 Radicals by and then make a more exaggerated movement to the left before turning right into 8?
    Last edited by Richard EVO; 07-17-2008 at 07:36 AM.
    The deposed former Sheriff of trackHQ . . .

    2006 Porsche 997 Carerra Coupe 6-MT - daily driver
    1992 Honda (Acura) NSX 5-MT - classic investment I couldn't resist and occasionally drive
    2004 Honda S2000 AP2 6-MT - track day car
    2006 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution IX MR 6-MT - when I need a backseat, 4-doors, or a real trunk, and still want to haul ass . . .

  11. #151
    FIA WTCC/Formula D Driver MiataCharles_Hong_Kong's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    California/Hong Kong
    Posts
    1,092
    Liked
    0 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard EVO View Post
    Jack's car is tits. If it was a completely clean lap, shouldn't he be able to theoretically go a little faster than 1:29.1 since he had to stay off line on the back straight to let the 2 Radicals by and then make a more exaggerated movement to the left before turning right into 8?
    I dont see staying offline at that spot without lifting off will really affect too much of his lap time tho, or not at all. Sometimes following fast cars will push you to make faster lap time coz u have some kinda target to chase even if they can never be caught up on. That works for me at least.

  12. #152
    enjoys driving fast Jack Olsen's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    529
    Liked
    378 times

    Default

    I maybe gave up a tiny amount of time pinching the exit of six, but I definitely could have carried more speed through turn 1 in that clip.

    I still haven't got a :28 at Willow. More 1:29.1Xs than I can count -- it's like an invisible wall. I guess I could buy some Hoosiers, but I'd prefer to keep running the same set of tires for both track and daily driving.

    I'll try to do it by (slowly) improving the driver.

  13. #153
    Chest hair required Olitho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    5,110
    Liked
    2216 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Olsen View Post
    I maybe gave up a tiny amount of time pinching the exit of six, but I definitely could have carried more speed through turn 1 in that clip.

    I still haven't got a :28 at Willow. More 1:29.1Xs than I can count -- it's like an invisible wall. I guess I could buy some Hoosiers, but I'd prefer to keep running the same set of tires for both track and daily driving.

    I'll try to do it by (slowly) improving the driver.

    What tires are you running now? I bet a set of Hoosier A6s are worth two seconds on anything you are running now.

  14. #154
    enjoys driving fast Jack Olsen's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    529
    Liked
    378 times

    Default

    Those are Toyo RA1s. Hoosiers would be nice, but the Toyos last about five times as long, and I don't need a second set of wheels with the Toyos. I don't have a trailer.

  15. #155
    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    La Verne, California, United States
    Posts
    7,671
    Liked
    2320 times

    Default

    wow, that is some nice driving at WSIR !!

    what's up with the long shift throw ? it looked like 1 ft travel from 3rd to 4th gear you are losing 3 seconds a lap on shifting install a S2K gear box.
    Supermiata S1, SuperMiata S2, Supermiata S3
    13 Tesla, ma: no engine !!
    17 GT350 !!
    08 M3 - Carmax warranty !!
    96 NSX
    06 EVO MR
    15 Mini Cooper S

  16. #156
    enjoys driving fast Jack Olsen's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    529
    Liked
    378 times

    Default

    Back in the early seventies, reviewers really liked the 911's transaxle. It was magnesium for weight savings, combined a differential and transmission into one component (since the engine was in the wrong place), and had synchros that were proprietary to Porsche. By modern standards, it's a pain in the ass -- it's very slow to shift and I'm not joking when I say it uses tractor transmission oil because modern synthetics won't work with those Porsche 'race synchros' at all. By comparison, a Japanese-engineered transmission shifts like a dream -- 'snick-snick' and you're in gear.

    But I guess the long throws and reluctant synchros fit well with the whole early 911 experience. It's a ridiculously simple and durable car. It's pretty light, considering it's so teutonically overbuilt. No power steering or power brakes, of course. A German ideal of form following function, first seen in 1963, nine years before mine was made -- serial number 0777 for 1972.


  17. #157
    LongWinded National Champ Bueller's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    1,748
    Liked
    168 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Olsen View Post
    I maybe gave up a tiny amount of time pinching the exit of six, but I definitely could have carried more speed through turn 1 in that clip.

    I still haven't got a :28 at Willow. More 1:29.1Xs than I can count -- it's like an invisible wall. I guess I could buy some Hoosiers, but I'd prefer to keep running the same set of tires for both track and daily driving.

    I'll try to do it by (slowly) improving the driver.
    Hey Jack!!! I miss you man! Its ed. I havent seen you in a very long time. I no longer run with OTR, because as you can see, i am busy competing in NASA's TT series. Although, i was able to make some time a few months ago, and ran with OTR. Unfortunately, you werent there. Stay in touch, and hopefully ill see out there one of these days.
    Team Rambling Warrior Poet


    RRE
    Robispec
    Girodisc
    SCM
    APR

  18. #158
    enjoys driving fast Jack Olsen's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    529
    Liked
    378 times

    Default

    Hey, Ed. Good to see you're out there schooling the other TT-ers in NASA. I think I saw a 1:33 for you somewhere? Very quick.

    I took a few months off this year for the arrival of my first child. I'm planning on being back with OTR this fall. Other guys have warned me that I'll be more cautious now that I've got a little guy depending on me. We'll see. I still want that 1:28.

  19. #159
    LongWinded National Champ Bueller's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    1,748
    Liked
    168 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Olsen View Post
    Hey, Ed. Good to see you're out there schooling the other TT-ers in NASA. I think I saw a 1:33 for you somewhere? Very quick.

    I took a few months off this year for the arrival of my first child. I'm planning on being back with OTR this fall. Other guys have warned me that I'll be more cautious now that I've got a little guy depending on me. We'll see. I still want that 1:28.
    Thats right, thats what the other guys from OTR told me, ie you took some time off awaiting the birth of your child. Well, Congrats! Sounds like a boy? Maybe someday he can take over the Porsche?

    Yeah, i ran a 1:33.162 at our May event. Although, my car is capable of 1:30s as is. During my May Big Willow and June T-hill TTA events i was having severe braking issues. My steering wheel would shake violently under braking. And if that wasnt bad enough already, i was boiling my fluid almost every session. Its not a confidence builder when your brake pedal drops to the floor when youre braking into T10 at T-hill. Btw, that was also the first time i ran T-hill (such an awesome track). I was constantly working on my car for those 2 weekend events. It was such a physically and mentally exhausting situation. After trying 3 different pads and 4 sets of front rotors, i found out the problem was due to my calipers. I finally got everything resolved and working properly at my last TTA event. My focus now is on Nationals. In less than 2 months, im going to Nationals at Mid-O for the first time! I just cant wait.
    Team Rambling Warrior Poet


    RRE
    Robispec
    Girodisc
    SCM
    APR

  20. #160
    enjoys driving fast Jack Olsen's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    529
    Liked
    378 times

    Default

    Thunderhill is an awesome track. I like it better than Laguna Seca or Sears Point (but not as much as Willow, honestly). Your car should really scoot at Thunderhill, too, since horsepower helps a lot coming off of the 2nd gear turns that lead onto onto both of its straights. (But be careful in 9 and 2 in an AWD car -- that's where the rollovers tend to happen.)

    Good luck at Nationals. I've got friends who've been going there since NASA started it, and they always have a blast.

+ Reply to Thread
Page 8 of 9 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts