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Thread: The "Big" Question for Early Stage Tracksters

  1. #81
    Chest hair required Olitho's Avatar
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    This is a really interesting discussion on the implications of raccing different cars and different classes.

    I have two observations/opinions after reading all of this:

    1. Spec Miata has an overall and overall higher level of competition and wins are harder to get due to the sheer number of cars on track almost every race. Spec Miata races usually have at least 12-15 cars and sometimes twice that so the driver and the car better be ready. T1 has some really good drivers, one of which was a "in-the-front" running SM racer as well as another who races in various pro races. So that class has some competition, too, but a win can be garnered if one of the guys who should win has an off day. I.E. I have get a few wins here and there.

    2. No one from the big dollar high-paying NASCAR and F1 teams are farming SM and T1 for the next world championshipship driver. Those guys are farming the karting, open-wheel and local circle track venues for their next talent.


    Oli
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    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olitho View Post
    This is a really interesting discussion on the implications of raccing different cars and different classes.

    I have two observations/opinions after reading all of this:

    1. Spec Miata has an overall and overall higher level of competition and wins are harder to get due to the sheer number of cars on track almost every race. Spec Miata races usually have at least 12-15 cars and sometimes twice that so the driver and the car better be ready. T1 has some really good drivers, one of which was a "in-the-front" running SM racer as well as another who races in various pro races. So that class has some competition, too, but a win can be garnered if one of the guys who should win has an off day. I.E. I have get a few wins here and there.

    2. No one from the big dollar high-paying NASCAR and F1 teams are farming SM and T1 for the next world championshipship driver. Those guys are farming the karting, open-wheel and local circle track venues for their next talent.

    Oli
    1. It's not the sheer numbers of cars that makes it hard. That just makes qualifying important and difficult. The trouble is the number of fast drivers.

    2. I'm not sure anyone is farming much anywhere, it's how much money can you bring. But yes, sports cars are a dead end.

  3. #83
    Chest hair required Olitho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robburgoon View Post
    1. It's not the sheer numbers of cars that makes it hard. That just makes qualifying important and difficult. The trouble is the number of fast drivers.
    There is usually a direct correllation between the number of competitors and the level of competition and SM has its fair share of good drivers. I think we are saying the same thing so STFU. ;-)
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  4. #84
    Spec Backhoe Champion redtopz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robburgoon View Post
    Yeah, right.

    1. 3x longer braking zones make for easier passing. Also, you're admitting that corvettes are easier to drive near the fastest possible pace.

    2. F1 cars have several times the G force. That's what I'd guess makes them hard to drive. That and laying down on the asphalt with your feet in the air.
    Oh well, I tried . I didn't intend to say that corvettes are easier to drive near the fastest possible pace. I thought you were saying that.

    As the more recent posts are saying, I agree that the type of car is not as important as the drivers you are competing against. The best drivers will be consistently getting the most out of their cars regardless of what they are driving. I have noticed a trend where the faster the car, the slower the drivers appear to be (not always true). I'm not sure why, but it might have something to do with more money than talent, older drivers being in faster cars, or increased caution in faster cars. Our T1 group is somewhat of an anomoly. First of all, T1 is nearly extinct in the rest of the country while we are growing locally. Hopefully this trend will spread from our region eastward. Secondly, T1 cars are a great bang for the buck. I don't know where else you can get such a fast production car based race car for $25k. Third, we have a pretty solid group of drivers who turn similar lap times and any of us can win on any given weekend. That makes for close, fun racing. I'm new to racing and learn something every time I go out with the T1 gang, mostly from my mistakes. Whether you guys think we suck as drivers or that our cars are easy to drive relative to miata racers doesn't really affect our racing experience. Maybe you guys could come out and within a couple hours beat all of us. But like Oli has mentioned, I don't think Chuck would say it's quite that easy. Another nice thing in our T1 group is that a pro racing engine won't buy you a podium or win. We can run with +/- 30 hp in our cars and still run neck/neck with the other cars. The extra hp helps, but it's not nearly as big of an advantage as it is in a miata where the pro engine is a huge advantage. This was obvious when I was watching the SM races at Sonoma and some miatas were obviously much faster down the straights and even though they were getting caught in the technical sections they were able to outrun the competition with power. So, if you think a miata takes more talent to race and has more competition, then I won't argue with that. But I still choose to race my corvettes, sans gold chain but with chest hair to spare.

    I would be willing to trade cars with Emilio for a day. I would love to drive Crusher and see what he could do in my vette. It would probably be a great learning experience for me. I've always thought it would be great to have Billy Johnson drive my car with a data system so I can see what it's true potential is.
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    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olitho View Post
    There is usually a direct correllation between the number of competitors and the level of competition and SM has its fair share of good drivers. I think we are saying the same thing so STFU. ;-)
    I'd say there's a larger ratio of riff raff to potential winners in norcal in socal. 70 cars and like 50 of them aren't that good.

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    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redtopz View Post

    I would be willing to trade cars with Emilio for a day. I would love to drive Crusher and see what he could do in my vette. It would probably be a great learning experience for me.
    Well, phooey!
    Last edited by robburgoon; 07-15-2012 at 06:19 PM.

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    In the words of the late Rodney King, "Can't we all just get along?"

    By the way, Bill, Emilio has an advantage over you in the car swap because he has run Oli's T1 car a number of times, and I assume you are new to built Miatas (Crusher is in no way an SM).
    The deposed former Sheriff of trackHQ . . .

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    Faster than Oli jimt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
    On a separate note, it might be fun to take say three Miata drivers like Rob Burgoon (SM), Andrew Kidd (PTE) and myself (PTC) and switch cars with three T1 drivers (Bill, Oli, Jim?) for a race weekend. Everyone pays consumables for the car they're driving. Any tires won (Hoosier) are used as reimbursement for tires used. Owners of cars do the TT class to put data and video in the car both days that the guest driver can use. The T1 drivers have more wins between them so the Miata drivers would have their work cut out for them. Just spitballing.
    Oh, I'd be down for this on one condition. Rob doesn't get my car, it just got painted.
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    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimt View Post
    Oh, I'd be down for this on one condition. Rob doesn't get my car, it just got painted.
    Double phooey!
    Last edited by robburgoon; 07-15-2012 at 06:19 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jimt View Post
    Oh, I'd be down for this on one condition. Rob doesn't get my car, it just got painted.
    Rethink that one condition. If Rob drives my car can't he still "Get" your car?
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    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatbillybob View Post
    Rethink that one condition. If Rob drives my car can't he still "Get" your car?
    T1 corvettes, gotta catch 'em all.

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    Chest hair required Olitho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard EVO View Post
    In the words of the late Rodney King, "Can't we all just get along?"

    By the way, Bill, Emilio has an advantage over you in the car swap because he has run Oli's T1 car a number of times, and I assume you are new to built Miatas (Crusher is in no way an SM).

    Emilio has driven dozens of different cars on track, plus he is an accomplished driver. I would think that gives him an advantage in adapting quickly. I don't claim to be the driver that Emilio is, but I can just about count on one hand the cars I have driven on track in the past eight years. I am not one to jump into a lot of cars and for me personally that makes me a little more cautiois and slow in exploring the envelope in different cars.

    On motorcycles, after years of racing and magazine testing, I am quite comfortable exploring the limits after about 10 minutes. (It helps that as a tester I am not responsible for any damage I do. In fact, when I break something they want to know how I did it.) I still do testing. I will have to direct you to the latest test I did on the Husqvarna TE-449 I did last month for the Robb Report's Ultimate Motorcycling. It is due out in a week or two.


    Oli
    Last edited by Olitho; 07-15-2012 at 07:14 PM.
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    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olitho View Post
    Husqvarna TE-449


    Oli
    Oooh, they make chainsaws, right? :-D

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    Chest hair required Olitho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robburgoon View Post
    Oooh, they make chainsaws, right? :-D

    Yup. That makes me think of an old advertisement from the 1970's. I don't remember from what manufacturer, but there at least two ads. One showed a chainsaw (Husky) and the other a piano (Yamaha) and the advert. said, we only make motorcycles.
    To the right of The Sheriff. Isn't everyone?

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    Chest hair required Olitho's Avatar
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    A TE-449 is much less than $20k, but it would make a horrible daily driver, although it would do OK on a track.
    To the right of The Sheriff. Isn't everyone?

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    MJM
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    Quote Originally Posted by bellwilliam View Post
    Corvette - great, except you can't buy one, (only track reliable is a c5z06), for under $20k and with budget left for tires.
    In this economy you can definitely get a C5Z06 for less than $20k.

    And it gets 28 mpg highway.

    Rotors are less than $50 and used racing slicks are $100.

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    I think and S2000 would do nicely as a DD and if you do some mild mods you will have a lot of fun on the track with it and still keep it a great DD.

    You then take the money you would have spent on making the S2000 more of a track car and easily buy a very nice used Kart.

    The Kart:

    * Way more economical to run at practice or race. Upkeep, brakes, tires, gas, spares etc..
    * Track day is $40 and most are usually open. Go out when you want for as long as you want till you are worn out.
    * If you want to race there is plenty of classes and entries.
    * Pretty much the best driver learning tool there is. If you consider cost it absolutely is the best.
    * Much higher performance in every way but top speed. Shifters hit 108 maybe 110 tops.
    * It has most all of the good aspects pointed out in the arguments from both sides in this thread.
    * Yes, you do need a place to put it but it takes up less room than the car would and you can put it on almost any small trailer and pull it behind anything including your S2000 DD/track day car.
    * Yes, if you are not in good shape it will kick your ass.
    * It's great motivation to get into better shape.
    * Hugely less cost if you mess things up from contact of an off.
    * Way easier to work on and you can do it all yourself. Top end takes 30min tops and costs $100.

    You will likely find that you are less and less interested in tracking the S2000 or Miata or Z06 because although it's fun there is such a lag in performance and fun. This will save you even more money.
    Last edited by markhs2; 07-15-2012 at 09:04 PM.
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    Senior Member rhouck's Avatar
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    Don't think I saw an e36 mentioned (though I think I saw someone mention the back seat convenience of BMWs).

    Cheap, plentiful and cheap parts, huge knowledge base, RWD, relatively forgiving.

    Plus as far as the DD portion of the equation goes, it would seem to blow most of the other suggestions away (with exception of the Evo) especially as a sedan. When I think DD I think of only owning one car (i.e., not having a truck, etc as well) and having a miata as an only vehicle certainly makes some "normal" tasks difficult. And the extra space that makes DDing easier carries over to room for tires, tools, ice chest, ezup, etc.

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    ^^^ E36 M3 is pretty cheap now. I had one that I bought new in 1995 and traded in in 2003. Really wished I kept it for a track car. But I'd still rather have an S2K (same exact bhp, by the way, 240 in both cars).
    The deposed former Sheriff of trackHQ . . .

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    Senior Member pucsicsal's Avatar
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    ^ You once bought an E36 brand-new? Sweet!! I miss my '99, that's the car I learned to drive fast in. But comparing stock to stock, an S2k is more of a pure sports/track car.

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