+ Reply to Thread
Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 LastLast
Results 61 to 80 of 118
Like Tree40Likes

Thread: The "Big" Question for Early Stage Tracksters

  1. #61
    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif emilio700's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    3,629
    Liked
    2400 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by robburgoon View Post
    Carl, you're still missing it. In your case the pack gets 1.5 seconds away. In my case, 5 seconds away.
    +1

    Yup, the Corvette driver is pushing hard and loses races for making mistakes.. just like the Miata driver. The part the Vette driver is unaware of and can't wrap their head around is that the mistake required to lose a race in a Miata is much smaller than it is in the Vette/Viper/Mustang/Evo. This is why the experienced Vette driver that hops into a Miata can pretty much never go as fast as a top Miata driver but the Miata guy has no trouble driving the Vette. Being both a Vette driver and Miata racer, you are one of the few that get it.

    As far as the bigger balls comment, well that the chest hair argument again. Gold chains, yadda yadda..
    WWW.949RACING.COM
    SuperMiata

    Aside from their cost I never understood why people race them.
    But obviously I just dont get it. -fatbillybob

  2. #62
    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    6,853
    Liked
    1429 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
    +1

    Yup, the Corvette driver is pushing hard and loses races for making mistakes.. just like the Miata driver. The part the Vette driver is unaware of and can't wrap their head around is that the mistake required to lose a race in a Miata is much smaller than it is in the Vette/Viper/Mustang/Evo. This is why the experienced Vette driver that hops into a Miata can pretty much never go as fast as a top Miata driver but the Miata guy has no trouble driving the Vette. Being both a Vette driver and Miata racer, you are one of the few that get it.

    As far as the bigger balls comment, well that the chest hair argument again. Gold chains, yadda yadda..
    The other corollary to it is that the lap time lost getting only 90% out of his corvette is much smaller than a guy getting only 90% out of the miata.

    90% of the corvette in the corners (assuming no confidence or balls issues) might be 1.5 seconds off the leader. Getting 90% out of the miata in the corners means 4 seconds off the leader.

  3. #63
    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    6,853
    Liked
    1429 times

    Default

    Sure there's more corners to do in the vette, but miata drivers tend to do well at corners. All you gotta do is add 140mph car control to the skill set. Also, I have video of doing turn 1 and turn 2 at ACS in the rain flat maintaining a slide and countersteering through both corners. It's not 140, but the wall threat is there when there's rivers pouring down the banking.
    Loose Caboose likes this.

  4. #64
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    10,979
    Liked
    1477 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
    Most of a "faster" production cars lower lap time comes from simply accelerating harder and reaching a higher speed on each straight. Entry, apex and exit speeds often the same as a lowly Miata. If a car reaches the same speed at the end of every straight regardless of how you drive the entry on the preceding turn, then botching it has a lower penalty. The low powered car requires fewer mistakes, greater precision to achieve lap times within the same % of the cars ultimate potential as the high power car. The low power car is not more difficult to operate at the drivers maximum potential. It's more difficult to drive to it's potential.
    ^^^ This.
    The deposed former Sheriff of trackHQ . . .

    2006 Porsche 997 Carerra Coupe 6-MT - daily driver
    1992 Honda (Acura) NSX 5-MT - classic investment I couldn't resist and occasionally drive
    2004 Honda S2000 AP2 6-MT - track day car
    2006 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution IX MR 6-MT - when I need a backseat, 4-doors, or a real trunk, and still want to haul ass . . .

  5. #65
    Spec Backhoe Champion redtopz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    1,229
    Liked
    981 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by robburgoon View Post
    Carl, you're still missing it. In your case the pack gets 1.5 seconds away. In my case, 5 seconds away.
    Quote Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
    +1

    Yup, the Corvette driver is pushing hard and loses races for making mistakes.. just like the Miata driver. The part the Vette driver is unaware of and can't wrap their head around is that the mistake required to lose a race in a Miata is much smaller than it is in the Vette/Viper/Mustang/Evo. This is why the experienced Vette driver that hops into a Miata can pretty much never go as fast as a top Miata driver but the Miata guy has no trouble driving the Vette. Being both a Vette driver and Miata racer, you are one of the few that get it.

    As far as the bigger balls comment, well that the chest hair argument again. Gold chains, yadda yadda..
    Quote Originally Posted by robburgoon View Post
    The other corollary to it is that the lap time lost getting only 90% out of his corvette is much smaller than a guy getting only 90% out of the miata.

    90% of the corvette in the corners (assuming no confidence or balls issues) might be 1.5 seconds off the leader. Getting 90% out of the miata in the corners means 4 seconds off the leader.
    Quote Originally Posted by robburgoon View Post
    Sure there's more corners to do in the vette, but miata drivers tend to do well at corners. All you gotta do is add 140mph car control to the skill set. Also, I have video of doing turn 1 and turn 2 at ACS in the rain flat maintaining a slide and countersteering through both corners. It's not 140, but the wall threat is there when there's rivers pouring down the banking.
    Wow, sounds like you guys have some pent up corvette envy . OK, I agree that miata drivers are much better drivers than corvette racers. All corvette drivers have to do is drag race down the straights, which is much easier than carrying momentum. But you have to agree that the best drivers are racing Spec Prius. That's right, true momentum cars. One bobble on on the track costs 40 seconds of lap time. One lift off the throttle kills your entire racing season. Even though it's a new race class, the skill set is so high for that class that Formula 1 and Nascar are sending out scouts to feed new drivers into their ranks.
    99 C5 corvette SCCA GT2
    99 Supermiata "Super"

  6. #66
    dirty smack talker hakeem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    San Francisco, CA
    Posts
    3,076
    Liked
    977 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by robburgoon View Post
    Carl, you're still missing it. In your case the pack gets 1.5 seconds away. In my case, 5 seconds away.
    The number of seconds is irrelevant, it's all relative to the other cars in the pack. It's easy to argue that it's as hard for the T1 Vettes to make up a 1.5 second differential as an SM driver making up a 5 second differential. All it takes is one mistake in either case, as you've already mentioned.

  7. #67
    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    6,853
    Liked
    1429 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hakeem View Post
    The number of seconds is irrelevant, it's all relative to the other cars in the pack. It's easy to argue that it's as hard for the T1 Vettes to make up a 1.5 second differential as an SM driver making up a 5 second differential. All it takes is one mistake in either case, as you've already mentioned.
    Ok, I'll give you some of that. The counterpoint though is that a mistake in a miata can be a draft breaker and win chance ender but in the vette you might not lose the draft.
    hakeem likes this.

  8. #68
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    10,979
    Liked
    1477 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by redtopz View Post
    Wow, sounds like you guys have some pent up corvette envy . OK, I agree that miata drivers are much better drivers than corvette racers. All corvette drivers have to do is drag race down the straights, which is much easier than carrying momentum. But you have to agree that the best drivers are racing Spec Prius. That's right, true momentum cars. One bobble on on the track costs 40 seconds of lap time. One lift off the throttle kills your entire racing season. Even though it's a new race class, the skill set is so high for that class that Formula 1 and Nascar are sending out scouts to feed new drivers into their ranks.
    William is the points leader in Spec Prius this year . . .
    The deposed former Sheriff of trackHQ . . .

    2006 Porsche 997 Carerra Coupe 6-MT - daily driver
    1992 Honda (Acura) NSX 5-MT - classic investment I couldn't resist and occasionally drive
    2004 Honda S2000 AP2 6-MT - track day car
    2006 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution IX MR 6-MT - when I need a backseat, 4-doors, or a real trunk, and still want to haul ass . . .

  9. #69
    Administrator ucfbrett's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Ventura, Calif.
    Posts
    5,449
    Liked
    2243 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bellwilliam View Post
    you can stick 4 whees/tires in the trunk.

    I would like to see that.

  10. #70
    The Real Captain Slow Red_5's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Santa Barbara
    Posts
    4,188
    Liked
    704 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ucfbrett View Post
    I would like to see that.
    It's with the back seat folded down.
    99 Mazda Miata SuperMiata #515 - AKA Sparky SOLD
    '91 Mariner Blue Miata project AKA Napoleon

  11. #71
    Chest hair required Olitho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    5,088
    Liked
    2165 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
    +1

    Yup, the Corvette driver is pushing hard and loses races for making mistakes.. just like the Miata driver. The part the Vette driver is unaware of and can't wrap their head around is that the mistake required to lose a race in a Miata is much smaller than it is in the Vette/Viper/Mustang/Evo. This is why the experienced Vette driver that hops into a Miata can pretty much never go as fast as a top Miata driver but the Miata guy has no trouble driving the Vette. Being both a Vette driver and Miata racer, you are one of the few that get it.

    As far as the bigger balls comment, well that the chest hair argument again. Gold chains, yadda yadda..

    Perhaps you are right, but one of the more respected SM racers has been racing with us this past year and he has had his share of trouble winning races and setting lap records. Don't get me wrong, he is driving well, but I don't think he would say it is a cake walk.
    To the right of The Sheriff. Isn't everyone?

  12. #72
    Spec Backhoe Champion redtopz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    1,229
    Liked
    981 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hakeem View Post
    The number of seconds is irrelevant, it's all relative to the other cars in the pack. It's easy to argue that it's as hard for the T1 Vettes to make up a 1.5 second differential as an SM driver making up a 5 second differential. All it takes is one mistake in either case, as you've already mentioned.
    ^^This. All kidding aside, since you guys brought up the argument that the skill to drive a miata fast and win races > the skill set to do the same in a corvette, here are some more things to think about.

    1. Instead of thinking about this from the perspective of the guy in front who makes a mistake and loses more time in a miata than a vette, think about it from the perspective of the guy chasing and trying to complete a pass. It will be much easier to pick off the guy in the miata who makes a mistake than the guy in the vette. It goes both ways. Since the leader in the vette can recover from a mistake quicker and not suffer the following sector as badly, it is harder to make a pass. The vette can mis the T1 apex and recover by T2 and the following car will have a hard time getting around. If the miata makes that mistake, then the following car will easily pick him off by drafting and then carrying his momentum around the leader.

    2. What you are arguing is that a T1 corvette is more difficult to drive fast and race than a Formula 1 race car. The formula 1 car has so much power that it can recover much more quickly and not lose as much time from a mistake than a slow momentum T1 corvette. If you believe this, then you are probably in the minority. If you don't believe this then you also can't believe the same thing for a miata vs. a corvette. Check mate.
    99 C5 corvette SCCA GT2
    99 Supermiata "Super"

  13. #73
    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    6,853
    Liked
    1429 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by redtopz View Post
    Check mate.
    Yeah, right.

    1. 3x longer braking zones make for easier passing. Also, you're admitting that corvettes are easier to drive near the fastest possible pace.

    2. F1 cars have several times the G force. That's what I'd guess makes them hard to drive. That and laying down on the asphalt with your feet in the air.
    Last edited by robburgoon; 07-14-2012 at 02:01 PM.

  14. #74
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Rolling Hills Estates
    Posts
    2,950
    Liked
    855 times

    Default

    Kinda weird how after all of the very informative posts regarding the Miata's, S2k's, and Vettes (where sub $20K is going to be a real challenge) - and even some interesting thoughts on Evo's and Boxsters - the front drive Honda guys (who seem to have a blast while driving some wicked lap times) seem to be missing from the discussion.

    Personally I always fantasize quite a bit when I see a clean Civic hatch on the freeway - nice looking, good cargo capacity, cheap parts, etc. - take the kids to the beach one weekend, and hit the track the next. Whatever, maybe they are not all that I imagine them to be. Or maybe these guys are having so much fun, they don't have time to jump into the thread.

  15. #75
    Senior Member robburgoon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    6,853
    Liked
    1429 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by loose caboose View Post
    kinda weird how after all of the very informative posts regarding the miata's, s2k's, and vettes (where sub $20k is going to be a real challenge) - and even some interesting thoughts on evo's and boxsters - the front drive honda guys (who seem to have a blast while driving some wicked lap times) seem to be missing from the discussion.

    Personally i always fantasize quite a bit when i see a clean civic hatch on the freeway - nice looking, good cargo capacity, cheap parts, etc. - take the kids to the beach one weekend, and hit the track the next. Whatever, maybe they are not all that i imagine them to be. Or maybe these guys are having so much fun, they don't have time to jump into the thread.
    wwd, wwd, wwd.

  16. #76
    Working
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    New York, NY
    Posts
    337
    Liked
    29 times

    Default

    thread got sidetracked, but listen to William.

  17. #77
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Rolling Hills Estates
    Posts
    2,950
    Liked
    855 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bellwilliam View Post
    real story, about 2-3 years ago, at Buttonwillow. it was a Friday, day before Miata and s2k Challenge. every s2k were driven to track, every Miata were towed to track........
    Is this because:

    1. Track worthy Miatas just aren't that streetable, or

    2. Fear of gay bashing goons in big black pickups prowling the streets.
    Last edited by Loose Caboose; 07-15-2012 at 11:47 AM.
    Richard EVO and bawareca like this.

  18. #78
    http://www.trackhq.com/Banners/yellowsitesponsor.gif emilio700's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    3,629
    Liked
    2400 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by redtopz View Post
    ^^This. All kidding aside, since you guys brought up the argument that the skill to drive a miata fast and win races > the skill set to do the same in a corvette, here are some more things to think about.

    1. Instead of thinking about this from the perspective of the guy in front who makes a mistake and loses more time in a miata than a vette, think about it from the perspective of the guy chasing and trying to complete a pass. It will be much easier to pick off the guy in the miata who makes a mistake than the guy in the vette. It goes both ways. Since the leader in the vette can recover from a mistake quicker and not suffer the following sector as badly, it is harder to make a pass. The vette can mis the T1 apex and recover by T2 and the following car will have a hard time getting around. If the miata makes that mistake, then the following car will easily pick him off by drafting and then carrying his momentum around the leader.

    2. What you are arguing is that a T1 corvette is more difficult to drive fast and race than a Formula 1 race car. The formula 1 car has so much power that it can recover much more quickly and not lose as much time from a mistake than a slow momentum T1 corvette. If you believe this, then you are probably in the minority. If you don't believe this then you also can't believe the same thing for a miata vs. a corvette. Check mate.
    So what you seem to be arguing is that even a driver that makes mistakes still has a shot at winning T1 races?
    You also seem to imply that skill is less important as the faster cars equalize track position more than a car that penalizes
    a driver more for small mistakes. I'll have to agree with you on both of those assertions.

    Bell Curve of forgiveness
    Your out of context generalization and misinterpretation of my hypothesis is interesting and made me think into it a bit deeper. Thanks for that.
    I picture a sort of bell curve for rating the "lap time forgiveness" of different track cars. I suspect that SRF's are possibly even trickier to extract
    all the speed out of than a Miata. To get a better visual on it we can use two extreme, and opposing examples.

    Example 1: F1 and T1
    My opinion is that 90-95% of the HPDE and W2W drivers on this forum could never get to within ~5% of the peak potential of an F1 car even with coaching.
    The physical demands alone are beyond the average couch potato club racer.
    Conversely, I think the top 10% of the drivers on this forum could get to within 1% of a T1 cars potential with only an hour or two of track time.
    In example 1, the faster F1 car would be less forgiving of errors when hunting fast laps. I'm guessing this assertion would not encounter much argument.

    Example 2: Golf Cart and Miata
    Pretty safe to say that every single member of this forum could lap WSIR (2.5mi) in a 15mph golf cart within 1-2s of each other. From a peak potential of about a 6 minute lap, that's about .5%. Switch to the Miata and history already has the data for us, no need to postulate. We usually see about a 3% drop in lap times with otherwise fast drivers that have little experience in <130whp Miatas.
    In example 2, the faster car is also less forgiving. Again, hard to argue against this.

    Example 3: T1 and Miata
    The basic math supports the assertion that the slower car in this pair would be less forgiving.

    So that's weird. What these examples force us to look for is the relationship between the number of turns a driver has to slow for vs number of turns where the minimum speed is affected by the exit speed of the preceding turn. The resultant value has some bearing on the relative forgiveness of the platform.

    Golf cart: Zero turns affected by preceding turn. 100% Power limited
    Miata: Almost every turn affected by preceding turn. Let say 75% power limited
    Vette: Few turns affected by preceding turn. Let say 50% power/50 % grip limited
    F1: Usually one or no turns affected by preceding turn. Maybe 70-90% grip limited

    I find this really interesting as it not a perspective I have really explored before.
    _________

    On a separate note, it might be fun to take say three Miata drivers like Rob Burgoon (SM), Andrew Kidd (PTE) and myself (PTC) and switch cars with three T1 drivers (Bill, Oli, Jim?) for a race weekend. Everyone pays consumables for the car they're driving. Any tires won (Hoosier) are used as reimbursement for tires used. Owners of cars do the TT class to put data and video in the car both days that the guest driver can use. The T1 drivers have more wins between them so the Miata drivers would have their work cut out for them. Just spitballing.
    WWW.949RACING.COM
    SuperMiata

    Aside from their cost I never understood why people race them.
    But obviously I just dont get it. -fatbillybob

  19. #79
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Rolling Hills Estates
    Posts
    2,950
    Liked
    855 times

    Default

    Beyond his keen understanding of racing (and the transitive property), Emilio is definitely on to something that could be real fun for us mere mortals to witness.
    Last edited by Loose Caboose; 07-15-2012 at 12:14 AM.

  20. #80
    Senior Member fatbillybob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    by the beach
    Posts
    1,894
    Liked
    1486 times

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
    So what you seem to be arguing is that even a driver that makes mistakes still has a shot at winning T1 races?
    You also seem to imply that skill is less important as the faster cars equalize track position more than a car that penalizes
    a driver more for small mistakes. .
    No you have to look at this in the context of a race against other vettes that have the smae attributes. However hard or easy it is to recover from a botched turn by the chaser is the same level of hard or easy for the leader. Where in robspeak the vette drivers are 1.5sec apart vs the miata 5 sec apart the guy behind is still the first looser. It takes more skill to regain track position because everything happens faster which is why us club hacks would have an impossible time in an F1 car


    Quote Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
    Example 2: Golf Cart and Miata
    In example 2, the faster car is also less forgiving. Again, hard to argue against this.

    Miata: Almost every turn affected by preceding turn. Let say 75% power limited
    Vette: Few turns affected by preceding turn. Let say 50% power/50 % grip limited
    . Just spitballing.
    Yes the faster car is less forgiving as you state. Means you need more skill to drive faster car to its limits managing two things you posted power and grip limiting vs just power limiting in the miata. The original sidetrack was miata skills needed to be higher than that of point and shoot vette driver. Now take the rediculous example of the F1 car driven by Bill and oli 190mph into T3 at ACS who has got the skill or guts to fight for that pass diving into T3? Could Bill or Oli do that at 90mph sipping starbucks coffee and texting?

    Which leads to a deeper topic. Indy racer Alex something or other wrote about 3 driver types:
    idiot = drives fearless 100%, 1 inch from the wall planning to correct for issues when the time comes, you know Mr. Flatout.
    reasonable man = if I get this wrong I'm going to die
    who we aspire to be = will control car at it's limit with precision and clarity but be within his comfort zone surprising others with his amazing talent.

    So maybe the issue is not miata or vette but the big picture is how much of driver 1 2 or 3 are you and how that influences the car you choose to race?

    I think that is going to determine your success in a car more than anecdotal ramblings about whether a miata or vette is harder to race.

+ Reply to Thread
Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts