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Thread: Releasing the steering wheel and letting it spin freely to unwind it?

  1. #21
    RaceTape Ninja Force McCocken's Avatar
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    I tell my students to leave the nannies on if that is how they drive their car the majority of the time. I also remind them two wheels off =mandatory pit stop, 4 = end of session. That first student I mentioned above, new to manual transmissions, the stability control saved us from what I thought was going to be an off-throttle oversteer into the k-rail. Time literally slowed and I remember hearing the individual pulses of the ABS trying to stabilize the car.

    What happened was the student wasn’t comfortable shifting, so he rode through a fast RH sweep out to an off-camber transition. When he felt the car shift from that, he lifted... near readline at the top of third coming onto the front straight at AMP. I was about ready to call it a day after that.

    It alarms me to see absolute novices come to Road Atlanta in really powerful V8 American cars, easily reach 140-150 on back into 10a, with little upgrades for braking or safety.
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    Call me a bad driver but IMO letting go is just another trick in your bag of tricks. Part of it is understanding your car. The post about caster is very important. Caster can do good things. Caster is managed just like any other suspension setting. There have been many times in 20 years of being on track that my hands have not been fast enough. Caster is a crutch that can get you out of a jam. I say learn to use it just like every other tool. I preference for hands on the wheel and fast hands absolutely but if the hands were so fast maybe you wouldn't have lost it in the 1st place. Maybe another tool will help you gather it up. It works for me.

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    FYI - new Infiniti Q50 is steer by wire. Yikes!
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    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    How are lane keeping assist workIng ?
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    JJ1
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    I admit, sometimes when driving a loose car I get sideways, I counter steer, get control with the throttle and let the caster straighten the front wheels nice and smoothly by releasing my grip for a moment.

    Watch at 5:45. Good example... but I’m curious if people will scold me for this. Maybe I need to break the habit?

    https://youtu.be/6AMBNb0mWbc

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    Not Certified Slow SDSUsnowboards's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ucfbrett View Post
    You can save it if your hands are gripping the wheel. You can't if you don't. This one is an oldie but a goodie.

    And then there is me doing the opposite in the first two corners of this video, well, more like a hybrid hands-on and hands-off. The flat bottom of the steering wheel made it fairly easy to catch the wheel at the right time. Generally my hands return to the wheel at the desired 3 & 9 positions. I suggest playing with sound off. I was learning how to video software and got carried away.

    https://youtu.be/IEKYwyr8rC4
    Last edited by SDSUsnowboards; 03-21-2018 at 10:48 AM.
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    OJR
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJ1 View Post
    I admit, sometimes when driving a loose car I get sideways, I counter steer, get control with the throttle and let the caster straighten the front wheels nice and smoothly by releasing my grip for a moment.

    Watch at 5:45. Good example... but Im curious if people will scold me for this. Maybe I need to break the habit?

    https://youtu.be/6AMBNb0mWbc
    Scold is such a strong word. lol But... It is definitely a bad habit you should break.

    Work on speeding up your hands. This is a common thing I work on when driver coaching. In this specific case, faster hands to catch the initial slide rotation would have resulted in less counter requirement. End result would have been less correction on downside of Phil Hill and earlier commitment to throttle. Throttle application would have balanced the situation a bit as well. Less of a "moment" and faster lap speed.
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    Senior Member bellwilliam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SDSUsnowboards View Post
    And then there is me doing the opposite in the first two corners of this video, well, more like a hybrid hands-on and hands-off. The flat bottom of the steering wheel made it fairly easy to catch the wheel at the right time. Generally my hands return to the wheel at the desired 3 & 9 positions. I suggest playing with sound off. I was learning how to video software and got carried away.

    https://youtu.be/IEKYwyr8rC4
    how about just stop driving twitchy butt car ?
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    JJ1
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    Quote Originally Posted by OJR View Post
    Scold is such a strong word. lol But... It is definitely a bad habit you should break.

    Work on speeding up your hands. This is a common thing I work on when driver coaching. In this specific case, faster hands to catch the initial slide rotation would have resulted in less counter requirement. End result would have been less correction on downside of Phil Hill and earlier commitment to throttle. Throttle application would have balanced the situation a bit as well. Less of a "moment" and faster lap speed.
    I totally agree I could have reacted faster and turned in smoother. I guess what I’m saying is, after you’ve made the mistake and are in the resulting big slide can you unwind the wheel by loostening your grip? Sometimes that feels really smooth but probably a bad habit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bellwilliam View Post
    How are lane keeping assist workIng ?
    FYI - there is an initiative to get Advanced Driver Assistance System (ADAS) information to HPDE instructors so that they understand the capabilities of the new cars they are getting into with active autonomous (or assisted) ADAS steering, braking or throttle inputs. This was briefed in early March at an East coast seminar. "Active" means that the car can apply that input without driver assistance - or can add input if the system decides the driver needs that assistance. Passive warning/advisory systems are not the focus of this effort.
    Last edited by Estoril; 03-21-2018 at 09:46 PM.
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  11. #31
    BMW Master bawareca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by passmenow View Post
    It could be more complicated than that.
    New drivers in new cars with full nannies, rear steer, match rev down shifts and modern nannies make new drivers think they are good drivers from the start.
    I don't instruct anymore but it must be difficult to do so with new drivers in modern nanny cars.
    With the new cars/new drivers lap times like this 1.23 at SOW are with in reach of limited experience drivers with state of the art nannies.
    I dont have experience with other brands, but I've been a few times at BMW Performance Center West a few times. The newest generation BMW stability control is intrusive as f**k. You can go in a 100+Mph sweeper just a hair close to the limit and it will pulse the s**t out of the brakes, making you look like a hero, especially if you have not much of an idea what are you doing. A 500+hp engine will give you 200hp at anything more than 2 degree steering angle. Once you are down to 1 degree all the hell gets loose. At the beginning I was really convinced I suck big time and I am jumping over the limit on many occasions, but it turns out this sytem is so good that it reacts slightly before getting hairy, but that behavior will not let you get at the edge at any time. You can really go faster by slowing down, but then you are fighting with the stability control, not the laws of the physics.

  12. #32
    fe4
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    I thought this was a good video of letting go of the wheel masquerading as skill:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95Hi6cAEEAc

    Hands-off hands-on doesn't need to be binary. Letting go all the way and watching the wheel twirl a couple times seems potentially acceptable if you're doomed otherwise, but begs the question of why you were so doomed in the first place.

    But it's helpful to know that rigid control of steering wheel angle when desperately hand-over-handing it in the correct direction might not always be critical. The car might help itself along while you are figuring out what to do for when the back half of the tank slapper happens.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bellwilliam View Post
    How are lane keeping assist workIng ?
    Or the automated parallel parking systems, for that matter???

  14. #34
    RaceTape Ninja Force McCocken's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Estoril View Post
    FYI - there is an initiative to get Advanced Driver Assistance System (ADAS) information to HPDE instructors so that they understand the capabilities of the new cars they are getting into with active autonomous (or assisted) ADAS steering, braking or throttle inputs. This was briefed in early March at an East coast seminar. "Active" means that the car can apply that input without driver assistance - or can add input if the system decides the driver needs that assistance. Passive warning/advisory systems are not the focus of this effort.
    I remember this going around last spring, there were concerns about the BMW systems, IIRC. I seem to recall there were certain models some organizers were considering excluding because the systems were too intrusive for track use.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Force McCocken View Post
    I remember this going around last spring, there were concerns about the BMW systems, IIRC. I seem to recall there were certain models some organizers were considering excluding because the systems were too intrusive for track use.
    The concerns were about all cars with active ADAS. BMW became a temporary focal point because the discussion arose first with BMWCCA Instructors. Active ADAS systems are coming to market among most brands we instruct in. The thing we have to accept is that active ADAS are arriving across almost all brands - so we need to get and stay informed as those capabilities become more sophisticated and common. Keep in mind that the owner/student may very well not understand the implications of those systems.

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    likes to left foot brake. passmenow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fe4 View Post
    I thought this was a good video of letting go of the wheel masquerading as skill:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95Hi6cAEEAc
    That was a sad video with a sad ending.
    Wearing shorts at COTA and hands off the wheel.

    Perhaps it's ok to risk a hands off save once a year but 2 or 3 times a session is abusing the hope the "good charma kicks in" hands off save.
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    Never stop driving the car.
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    I think the biggest threat to HPDE in the future is government/insurance mandate for nannies you can't turn off. Who wants to pay 100's sometimes 1000's to visit a track and be driven around on a Disneyland ride? Ahhh....the safety of video games and refreshing coke in the cupholder...
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    RaceTape Ninja Force McCocken's Avatar
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    Releasing the wheel in this instance didn't seem to help.

    https://youtu.be/ZMDZIs9-nrM?t=38s
    Yer pal,
    Force

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    Quote Originally Posted by passmenow View Post
    Rob you checking out my legs? gimmie $5. lol
    6'7" tallest fast driver in San Diego. lol
    Half inch taller than Crazee but he is a little faster.
    Short people gunna hate LOL

    You are the fast "vertically enhanced" driver on this site
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