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Thread: Buttonwillow 13CW Critique Please-M3

  1. #21
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    Let's face it the car is faster than you.......
    With that said I believe you need to go back to basics. Take a car control class, in this class you will drive in a figure 8 watered down on a skid pad. You learn trail breaking going into the turn. Then you will learn how to increase and decrease the turning radius with the gas peddle, zero steering input. Then with the transition to throttle the rear end steps out and you learn to control that as you accelerate out of the corner.
    In my non professional opinion this skid pad exercise is the single most important event to reducing lap times. For me personally I reduced my lap times by 4 seconds a lap at big willow and others already considered me "fast" before the class.
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  2. #22
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    Thanks for the input. I do understand that the car is faster than me; that is why I am asking you all for advice!
    I am familiar with trail braking and using throttle to rotate the car and and often implement these techniques at Buttonwillow depending on the corner, but I will try to get out to a car control class to work on my skills when there is one available near me.
    I would also appreciate some pointers on this specific track or maybe certain techniques I can implement in specific corners.

  3. #23
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    Went back today to BW and finally got some sub 2 minute laps. Here is a video of my best lap of 1:59.4. This time traction control was completely off. Upon watching the video numerous times and comparing them to other peoples' faster laps in similar cars I think that I need to carry more speed through riverside and sweeper. Any tips/input would be greatly appreciated!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQeySdJrAzc
    Last edited by kkashanchi; 05-21-2016 at 03:19 PM.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Gian's Avatar
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    Well you have got into the sub 2 sec. And you are hitting all the marks. The rest is going to be hard with out feeling what the car is doing (physically).

    But I found a few things you can work on.

    In cotton corners. On the entrance . Run over the curb more You start getting on the throttle (@ 0:33) then back off over the hill. Stay in it, (not full throttle but more) up and over the hill. The next turn (0:39) you do the same thing. And then, it seems you do it again (0:45) going into the bus stop (can't tell for sure, can't hear the motor, but the MPH drops).

    Now, let take you back to 0:39. After the hill, and the car settles. Turn in just a tad later and more. It's a late apex and you need to finish the turn and have the car pointing straight. The let it unwind drifting out to the curbing. So if and when the tires touch the curb. The rear touches just before the front does. Almost using it as a berm.
    What this does is: get the car in the direction you want while accelerating full throttle. Then gives you time to deal with imperfections and miscalculations (with small inputs) while staying full throttle.
    Bottom line. Done right you should be full throttle from crest to crest (cotton corners to Phill Hill). As long as your car can handle the bus stop. Even then, it's just off throttle (0:52), on again and MORE CRUB (0:53).
    That's not a Typo, I just can't spell no so well.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gian View Post
    Well you have got into the sub 2 sec. And you are hitting all the marks. The rest is going to be hard with out feeling what the car is doing (physically).

    But I found a few things you can work on.

    In cotton corners. On the entrance . Run over the curb more You start getting on the throttle (@ 0:33) then back off over the hill. Stay in it, (not full throttle but more) up and over the hill. The next turn (0:39) you do the same thing. And then, it seems you do it again (0:45) going into the bus stop (can't tell for sure, can't hear the motor, but the MPH drops).

    Now, let take you back to 0:39. After the hill, and the car settles. Turn in just a tad later and more. It's a late apex and you need to finish the turn and have the car pointing straight. The let it unwind drifting out to the curbing. So if and when the tires touch the curb. The rear touches just before the front does. Almost using it as a berm.
    What this does is: get the car in the direction you want while accelerating full throttle. Then gives you time to deal with imperfections and miscalculations (with small inputs) while staying full throttle.
    Bottom line. Done right you should be full throttle from crest to crest (cotton corners to Phill Hill). As long as your car can handle the bus stop. Even then, it's just off throttle (0:52), on again and MORE CRUB (0:53).

    Thank you for the analysis, it is much appreciated. I'll try to minimize time spent off throttle in those corners and try to stay on throttle as much as possible. I usually would let off briefly so that I can get a bit more grip from the front and better turn in.
    I need to experiment with how much throttle I can sustain while getting enough turn in to stay on line and hit the apex. The big MPH drop at club corner going into the bus stop leg of the track is because I let off completely and I'm in 3rd gear at a high RPM.
    Maybe shifting into 4th and at least maintenance throttle will reduce engine braking and I'll carry more speed through the corner.
    I think this car might have too much power to be full throttle from the top of cotton corners to phil hill though. At least with these tires (or at least I think they can't lol) and no aero, but I'll try to maximize time and pressure on throttle through that portion of the track.
    With just a lift before bus stop I think I would run over bus stop at ~85mph or even a bit faster if I carry more speed into club corner, do you think its possible even with eating up more curb without sailing off the track?

  6. #26
    Senior Member Gian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kkashanchi View Post
    Thank you for the analysis, it is much appreciated. I'll try to minimize time spent off throttle in those corners and try to stay on throttle as much as possible. I usually would let off briefly so that I can get a bit more grip from the front and better turn in.
    See and that is where sitting in the car and watching differ. You don't get the, seat of the pants, feed back.


    Quote Originally Posted by kkashanchi View Post
    I need to experiment with how much throttle I can sustain while getting enough turn in to stay on line and hit the apex..
    Just remember, At the apex, you should be done with the turn. Almost heading straight.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkashanchi View Post
    The big MPH drop at club corner going into the bus stop leg of the track is because I let off completely and I'm in 3rd gear at a high RPM.
    Maybe shifting into 4th and at least maintenance throttle will reduce engine braking and I'll carry more speed through the corner.
    So why are you letting off in club corner? Is it pushing?


    Quote Originally Posted by kkashanchi View Post
    I think this car might have too much power to be full throttle from the top of cotton corners to phil hill though. At least with these tires (or at least I think they can't lol) and no aero, but I'll try to maximize time and pressure on throttle through that portion of the track.
    I can do it in a (mostly) stock mustang GT on NT01s. I'm sure you can do it.


    Quote Originally Posted by kkashanchi View Post
    With just a lift before bus stop I think I would run over bus stop at ~85mph or even a bit faster if I carry more speed into club corner, do you think its possible even with eating up more curb without sailing off the track?
    Yes.
    You should almost center the curbing under the car. BUT, push your self slowly up to this point. First get the turn right. Then add the speed. Just tap the brakes, then lesstapig of the brakes till it's just a lift. You will find you can carry why more speed.
    That's not a Typo, I just can't spell no so well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gian View Post

    So why are you letting off in club corner? Is it pushing?



    I can do it in a (mostly) stock mustang GT on NT01s. I'm sure you can do it.


    Yes.
    You should almost center the curbing under the car. BUT, push your self slowly up to this point. First get the turn right. Then add the speed. Just tap the brakes, then lesstapig of the brakes till it's just a lift. You will find you can carry why more speed.

    I would usually let off so that I can turn enough to set myself up for that left bend before bus stop. I will definitely try it under more throttle next time out and see if I can do it, I haven't ever tried to be honest.
    Looking closely at the curbing at bus stop it looks curved. So pretty much I need to jump over the dirt with my left wheels and get on the curbing earlier than the actual apex? Would that mean an earlier turn in?
    Last edited by kkashanchi; 06-03-2016 at 10:28 PM.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Gian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kkashanchi View Post
    Looking closely at the curbing at bus stop it looks curved. So pretty much I need to jump over the dirt with my left wheels and get on the curbing earlier than the actual apex? Would that mean an earlier turn in?
    The curbing is so smooth with just enough angle. That plus the cars weight transfer to the outer wheels. Gives you just enough air under the inside wheels so they don't touch and you have a smooth transition over the dirt.
    You turn in just a click sooner, more and back on the throttle... (you should be almost a quarter of a car with over ). That way your done rotating the car by the time your wheels touch down. (this is hard to explain with out being in the car). The car will then squat and stick.
    That's not a Typo, I just can't spell no so well.

  9. #29
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    New PR: 1:57.5

    I have had multiple 1:56.xx laps according to predictive lap times on my AIM SOLO, but I lack the consistency to piece a fast lap altogether.
    Hopefully in the next couple events I can dip into the 56s. Thank you all for you the advice so far.

    I am open to more critiques to help me get there!
    Last edited by kkashanchi; 05-11-2017 at 10:18 PM.

  10. #30
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    the power!
    I hope poor japanese 4 cylinders have half of M4's engine power.
    VA(15) STI/FRS

  11. #31
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    Traffic on sunset. Sunrise could be hairier. cotton corners look decent. you can probably do the corners before bus stop a little wilder and faster. you can clip more of the bus stop apex off. the high speed stuff you can do more aggressively and faster. might need a seat/harness/cage to make that easier.


    I'm guessing you could do phil hill a little more tidy and be able to get back on the gas sooner, but its a bit of a nitpick. Sweeper entry can be hairier, as can the sweeper exit. Should be feeding in throttle and barely hanging on at sweeper exit.

    Sunset #2 I think you can scare yourself more here. A little faster. Your minimum corner speed seems low, like you turned in earlier than you liked, and took it easy. You can probably mess around with trail braking some for this corner.

    Hope that helps.

    Need a louder exhaust or throttle position log to have a better idea what's going on.
    bawareca likes this.

  12. #32
    Senior Member KJSCV's Avatar
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    I usually steer clear of advice based on a video or two but Rob makes some good points.. to sum it up you have maybe too much car control, give it it's head, free the car up, let it go a bit. Not every slip of the tires needs to be caught before it begins... you can't find the limits of the car or yourself if you don't experience the limits...

    all that being said I certainly understand driving with your wallet in mind and there's no harm in sneaking up on it...

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